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Arcane Shot vs Serpent Sting
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Messaggio di
Wildhorn
Arcane Shot
procs
Cobra Strikes
and
Sic 'Em!
(both are NOT 100% sure proc).
Serpent Sting
with
Improved Serpent Sting
does about 3 times Arcane Shot damage.
Basically, BM hunters are forced to use Arcane Shot only due to the procs from it that our talent give us.
MM hunters wont use arcane shot over ISS
Same for SV hunters (and they will find the +6sec from Cobra Shot redundant).
So now, the question is. Does it worth to sink 8 talent points (Efficieny talent too) into talent that might buff your pet damage or that ISS would do more damage anyway?
Messaggio di
Wildhorn
EDIT: I thought Sic 'Em was was 2 next basic attack, but talent calculator show that it is only the next one. I did my calculs assuming 2 attacks, if it is only one, ISS win hands down.
Assuming a hunter with 5k AP (I don't know how much AP they will have in Cata, but I needed a number)
For Cobra Strikes (15% proce chance):
(586 + 586) * 0.15 for an average of 175,8 damage per Arcane Shot use.
Now, Sic 'Em! was not as easy to figure out because it is based on your crit chance and that is not a straight + damage ability. It is more that at some point your pet will run out of focus and its DPS decrease. This talent will just make that point to happen later. So if I am wrong to assume this is equivalent of 2 Basic Ability (and nothing more or less), please correct me.
For 30% crit chance: (586 + 586) * 0.3 for an average of 351,6 damage per Arcane Shot use.
For 40% crit chance: (586 + 586) * 0.4 for an average of 468,8 damage per Arcane Shot use.
For 50% crit chance: (586 + 586) * 0.5 for an average of 586 damage per Arcane Shot use.
Now Improved Serpent Sting gives
1290 damage
per Serpent Sting cast.
Arcane Shot + Cobra Strike alone gives 489.72 + 175.8 =
665,52
average damage.
If we compare it to Arcane Shot (489,72 damage with the glyph) with both Cobra Strikes and Sic 'Em!, it gives us:
30% crit: 489,72 + 175,8 + 351,6 =
1017,12 damage
40% crit: 489,72 + 175,8 + 468,8 =
1134,32 damage
50% crit: 489,72 + 175,8 + 586 =
1251,52 damage
EDIT: After some maths, over 2 minutes (cooldown of Fervor), a pet will be able to use
40 basic attacks, costing a total of 1000 focus
. Now, if pet regenerate focus at same speed than us (5/sec), that we have an auto-attack speed of 2 seconds with a 35% chance to crit, our pet should
regenerate
780 (5/sec + 30% from BD talent) + 210 (from GftT talent) + 50 from Fervor =
1040 focus
. Which means,
our pet will never run out of focus, making this talent 100% USELESS
.
Now, what I did not factor in:
- Pet criticial chance that could increase the value of Sic 'Em!
- Pet damage reduced due to target armor
- If Improved Serpent Sting can or can't crit (anybody in beta could provide this information please?).
- If you do not go with the Arcane Shot talents, you could get Pathing, which provide a 3% haste and Rapid Killing (which in fight with adds or in PvP would buff your damage by alot if I am not mistaken).
What do you think?
I might be wrong but so far it seems using Improved Serpent Sting provide more damage and it only cost 2 talent points instead of 8.
Correct me if I missed something.
Messaggio di
571648
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Messaggio di
Wildhorn
I know that FenrirTheHunter. But for the moment, Arcane Shot, Serpent Sting and pet Basic Attack didnt get changed for like 3-4 builds. I am just theorycrafting with the data we have. Also, if Blizzard read this (they read but dont post on wowhead forums), they might tell themselves "wow, we totally missed that". One ability and 8 talent points becoming more or less useless by 2 talent points. Since I am not in beta and can't post my observation on beta forum, I do it here in hope someone read it or repost them on beta forum.
Messaggio di
671298
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Messaggio di
Wildhorn
Yes you misunderstood it. You can recast Serpent Sting if you want, even if it didnt wear off. The question is, why cast Arcane Shot instead of Serpent Sting when the later seems do more damage.
Messaggio di
571648
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Messaggio di
Wildhorn
Now that patch is kinda this week, what do you think?
Messaggio di
Gengis
Wildhorn you forgot about the talent that our pets have that makes their basic attack hit harder and also cost 2x as much focus wild hunt. Forgot how to link talents... it has been a while for me.
Messaggio di
Interest
Yes you misunderstood it. You can recast Serpent Sting if you want, even if it didnt wear off. The question is, why cast Arcane Shot instead of Serpent Sting when the later seems do more damage.
Cobra Shot extends the duration of Serpent Sting...Still, based on your current theorycrafting, whenever you get enough focus (and with the use of Kill Command every cooldown, this will be rather infrequent), Serpent Sting with the talent seems viable enough...but..
I doubt they will allow it to stand, Arcane Shot will most likely be scaled upward or Serpent Sting will be scaled downward.
Messaggio di
207272
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Messaggio di
Wildhorn
Wildhorn you forgot about the talent that our pets have that makes their basic attack hit harder and also cost 2x as much focus wild hunt. Forgot how to link talents... it has been a while for me.
What talent? And to link something just copy the adress in your browser and drop it here.
Hmm, yeah
Wild Hunt
I will have to consider this.
I have some busines to do IRL, then I will recalculate all this.
Messaggio di
207272
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Messaggio di
Azazel
/sigh
BETA IS BETA
They are playing with numbers around to test how much it affect every skills and gameplay. There is also typo error that happens. Stop to panic. It won't stay like this for long.
I agree with you... that's a once in a lifetime experience, ya know?
Messaggio di
Korikin
I couldn't follow your post so I had to crunch it out for myself. I think a better way to break this down is the basic shot damage calculations; sans talents. At least to start.
-Serpent Sting: Causes Nature damage over 15 sec.
-Arcane Shot: An instant shot that causes weapon damage plus as arcane damage.
Each costs 25 focus and is instant cast.
So, for 5000AP (since that was tossed around already) we're looking at a Serpent Sting of 0.4*(5000)+2301.1 = 4301.1 dmg over 15 seconds. And for Arcane Shot 0.19*(5000)+252 = 1202 dmg.
So far, this makes sense, the designers want us to keep Serpent Sting up on our targets. It's better damage/focus and it's better damage/second.
I think Wildhorn's issue comes down to only the Improved Serpent Sting talent. If we take 30% of the base Serpent Sting Damage, 1290 damage, and compare that to the total Arcane Shot Damage what do we see.
Obviously, 1290 > 1202. So we ask, if I have extra focus to burn (which I must if I'm even thinking about using Arcane Shot) then why Arcane Shot instead of proc'ing the Improved Serpent Sting damage?
For a difference of 88 damage, first thing I'd look at is the AP break even point. The break even point, as of now, is at 6261 AP, above which Arcane Shot is going to do more damage. Right now most of us (myself in particular) can break that AP mark. So, for me, at level 80 there isn't much reason to spend the 2 points in Improved Serpent Sting as any spec.
At lower levels of AP (read: leveling pre-80) then there is perhaps a reason to spec into Improved Serpent Sting as an Arcane Shot replacement. But consider that you'd have to be leveling as Survival, or fairly far along before you picked it up (lvl71-73).
Come Cata (read: level 85), I suspect we will all be above the break point, and it seems unlikely that we will be wanting to cast Serpent Sting more than once when we can just refresh with Cobra Shot or Chimera Shot.
This falls into the category of "slightly strange for 80 but better at 85".
EDIT: Apparently using an old Arcane shot calc. Probably won't bother updating.
Messaggio di
Wildhorn
@Korikin: You are using wrong numbers. Latest Arcane Shot build only use 4.2% (0.042) of your AP, not 19%. Check my links of abilities in my first post for numbers.
Messaggio di
Korikin
Hmm, thought that was an iteration ago and it had changed (again). You seem to be right though, guess I'm not gonna worry about it until patch hits and I can just check then. Wish they'd stop swinging it so wildly on me.
Messaggio di
Wildhorn
It does about 3 weeks it got changed and since patch is tommorow for US, I think it will stay the same.
Messaggio di
Wildhorn
Here are my new numbers (I got them with an Excel sheet):
Assuming Hunter with 5k AP, 35% crit chance for both hunter and pet.
- Improved Serpent Sting Damage: 1290
(Number in between parenthesis are damage with Arcane Shot damage)
- Cobra Strike Damage 114,27 (576,27)
- Sic 'Em Damage: 205,1 (667,1)
- Sic 'Em Damage with Wild Hunt: 246,12 (708,12)
- Sic 'Em Damage (Crit): 410,2 (872,2)
- Sic 'Em Damage with Wild Hunt (Crit): 492,24 (872,2)
- Sic 'Em Damage with Wild Hunt (Crit) + Cobra Strike = 1068,51 Maximum Average Damage.
Now I will explain the numbers above.
- Cobra Strike Damage gives the next 2 attack a 100% crit chance. Sound awesome and all, but since pet already have 35% chance, it only gives an extra 65% damage potential. And since it only happens 15% of the time, the number is reduced even more.
- Sic 'Em damage grant the equivalent of a free attack. But a pet will never really run out of focus with the +30% focus talent, Fervor, Go For the Throat talent, Focus Fire Talent. So its real use is to keep pet as long as possible within Wild Hunt range. But the proc is based on our crit, and with an attack speed of 2sec, it will gives an average of 1 proc every 2 pet attack.
In the end, the Arcane Shot combo would do about 80% damage of Improved Serpent Sting. And if you reduce the basic attack damage vs the target armor, the Arcane Shot combo is even less desirable.
Arcane Shot combo would allow bigger damage burst, but for steady damage, ISS is better.
Again, if someone can prove me wrong, go ahead.
Messaggio di
Wildhorn
Over all that, now I am wondering if all of this will be used because Immolation Trap (with trap launcher) glyphed and talented will gives 4648,8 damage over 9 seconds for the same amount of focus. This just beat both things hand down.
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