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General Lore Discussions
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Publication par
Morec0
Don't think they are 'technically' immortal, just incredibly long lived; had they been immortal, the offer from Sargeras wouldn't have been so tempting after all.
Could be it's their closeness to the light that affected their lifespan - or, at least, that's what I always believed. The draenei were influenced by the Light and reached and "immortal" status that way while the man'ari eredar were influenced by fel and reached "immorality" - I view the two as just about but not quite separate species, much in the way I view high elves and blood elves.
Publication par
Adamsm
I see a distinct difference in species between the Man'ari Eredar and the Draenei; now the Broken, those are closer to the High/Blood elf analog. But I still don't think the Draenei, even after being exposed to the Light for 25000 are true immortals. After all, we've seen immortals in the Warcraft universe and they do not age past a certain point; the night elves have shown that. But we have seen the Draenei continue to age and enter into the twilight years; the Greatfather spirit in Auchidoun is a good example of that.
Publication par
Rankkor
Its entirely possible that all the dead in auchindoun have died to many other causes.
Ok, so draenei will never die of old age? they can still die to disease, betrayal, dangerous wild life (Draenor being all savage and all) and so on.
Publication par
Adamsm
Still waiting for the Blackrock area of WoD to open up; I still wanna know what will happen when we run into Alternate Varok and Brox, and if Blizzard is going to stick with their established characters at the time(IE a part of the mass slaugher) or if they'll decide to try to 'salvage them' and make them go good...in all honesty, I'd rather they keep them the way they were suppose to be during the Draenei War, since then they'd have the same vibe as Nazgrim.
And of course, looking forward to the reveal on Doomhammer...who again, I actually want to fight against; not because of any Alliance bias, but because he's the greatest of the Orc warriors and would be interesting to see how they would set up an encounter around that.
Publication par
Morec0
Still waiting for the Blackrock area of WoD to open up; I still wanna know what will happen when we run into Alternate Varok and Brox, and if Blizzard is going to stick with their established characters at the time(IE a part of the mass slaugher) or if they'll decide to try to 'salvage them' and make them go good...in all honesty, I'd rather they keep them the way they were suppose to be during the Draenei War, since then they'd have the same vibe as Nazgrim.
And of course, looking forward to the reveal on Doomhammer...who again, I actually want to fight against; not because of any Alliance bias, but because he's the greatest of the Orc warriors and would be interesting to see how they would set up an encounter around that.
Salvaging them - through at least a redemption arc of some kind, having them be good guys right off the bat seems... odd - doesn't seem out of the question, given that no orc here has drank Mannoroth's blood. But that's just my take on it.
Publication par
Rankkor
Still waiting for the Blackrock area of WoD to open up; I still wanna know what will happen when we run into Alternate Varok and Brox, and if Blizzard is going to stick with their established characters at the time(IE a part of the mass slaugher) or if they'll decide to try to 'salvage them' and make them go good...in all honesty, I'd rather they keep them the way they were suppose to be during the Draenei War,
since then they'd have the same vibe as Nazgrim.
I'd rather they didn't. It was in really poor taste to take such a beloved character and make
us
kill him. Next time they may as well force us to shoot bambi's mom while they're at it.
I was already forced to fight several horde heroes that I used to admire, and next expansion I'm gonna be forced to kill several more (Grom, Bladefist, Zaela and Shokia) so no thanks, I hope they are part of the orcs that we DONT kill. Its already proven that not all the orcs in draenor are hostile, lots of clans ARENT part of the iron horde (Frostwolves, Laughing Skull, Mok'nathal, Bonechewer, Burning Blade, Stormreaver, Black Tooth Grin, Searing Blade, etc) and we even have a few turncoats from the clans that are members of the iron horde (Blackrock, Shattered Hand, Bleeding Hollow, Shadowmoon, Thunderlord, and Warsong) that join our garrison, such as the Blackrock Chef.
So its not completely unreasonable to think that not all of the non-frostwolf orcs in draenor are targets on a to-do list, some of them will be potential allies, and I'd rather Saurfang(All of them), Eitrigg, and Doomhammer, DIDN'T join the list of casualties. Enough horde heroes have died recently, and more than enough will die in the next expansion, there's no need to bloat the list more than it already is.
And of course, looking forward to the reveal on Doomhammer...who again, I actually want to fight against; not because of any Alliance bias, but because he's the greatest of the Orc warriors and would be interesting to see how they would set up an encounter around that.
tch, fine, I'll admit a fight would be cool (if anything because this guy right here bested the Lion of Azeroth in one-on-one, I am honestly curious as to how would a fight against him would be like), but not killing him, we could just fight him, and have him eventually be on our side. Its not like we haven't done that before several times.
Salvaging them - through at least a redemption arc of some kind, having them be good guys right off the bat seems... odd - doesn't seem out of the question, given that no orc here has drank Mannoroth's blood. But that's just my take on it.
There's already a few datamined NPCs from the iron horde that defect over to our side, so its definitely not out of the question.
Me, I'm very happy to see
this
.
if you look to the left: Warmatron Okrilla, ends up NOT joining the Iron Horde. THANK.GOD.
Enough badass women in the horde have gone evil (T_T Why zaela? Why? you could had ended up being the most badass female orc in the game, same for Shokia) about time we have one that didn't when she had the chance.
Also an interesting tidbit:
There's 3 main leaders in the Horde-Alliance joint task force that fights the iron horde.
There's Thrall leading the horde, Maraad leading the alliance, and Kadghar leading and coordinating both groups. So good news for ya Adamsm, while we horde players will see visits from Kadghar from time to time, its unlikely you'll get visits from Thrall any time soon.
Publication par
Adamsm
I'm not holding my breath in regards to Thrall...I'm sure he'll be poking around in the Alliance settlements whether we want him there or not.
As for the Orcs; it's an Alternate World: These are not the Heroes of the Horde. They look like them, but it's not them. Same as that stupid idiotic Alternate Me fight at the end of War Crimes; from a cowardly Anduin to a burning rage hulk of a Baine, they needed to be stopped. So, if in Warlords that means that the Alternate Varok and Broxigar will not stand down and leave the side of Blackhand, so be it.
I'll admit it, I want to fight them; not just them, but the Warlords themselves. I want a chance to experience battles against some of the 'great' warriors of the Dark Horde and have a chance to take them down.
Though that list of Clans that didn't join up makes no sense...especially since some of them weren't formed till decades later. The Stormreavers are Gul'dan's clan, the Burning Blade were all berserkers that were led by the Ogres, the Laughing Skull were all treacherous deceptive manipulative bastards also led by an Ogre, the Black Tooth Grin was created after the wars by Rend and Maim following the death of Blackhand, the Bonechewers were the guards of the portal who were destroyed by Ner'zhul(so I guess that one could work), and the Searing Blade is the sister clan of the Burning Blade who were not formed till after Durotar was settled and they worked under the new Shadow Council to try to overthrow Thrall from within Ragefire.
Publication par
Rankkor
I'm not holding my breath in regards to Thrall...I'm sure he'll be poking around in the Alliance settlements whether we want him there or not.
Anduin poked his head EVERYWHERE, in Pandaria. I survived. So can you in regards to thrall.
As for the Orcs; it's an Alternate World: These are not the Heroes of the Horde. They look like them, but it's not them.
Not the point man, and even then, Zaela and Shokia are not alternates, and I still have to kill them as well, so forgive me for not eagerly desiring to also add Saurfang, Eitrigg, Doomhammer, Grom, or Bladefist to that list.
Already Grom and Bladefist we're gonna fight and probably kill, but I'm hoping the other 3 can be saved.
I'll admit it, I want to fight them; not just them, but the Warlords themselves. I want a chance to experience battles against some of the 'great' warriors of the Dark Horde and have a chance to take them down.
If only I could have that same wish regarding alliance heroes, but that'll never happen, since all the enemies have to be one way or another, evil offshoots of the horde =/
Not all of us get what they want I guess.
Though that list of Clans that didn't join up makes no sense...especially since some of them weren't formed till decades later.
Lol, yes I know, I mostly mentioned them as an example. So far there's only seven confirmed clans on the Iron Horde, with several more refusing to join out of clan pride, or honor, or legion worship, or other reasons.
The Stormreavers are Gul'dan's clan
Yes, and Gul'dan is not a part of the Iron Horde, in fact, he was their prisoner and they were using him to power up the dark portal. Since he's not a willing member of the Iron Horde, neither is his clan, which at this point has to be seen with great suspicion by the rest of the horde thanks to Garrosh. They're not allies though (Thank god) and several quests involve hunting them down and preventing them from summoning the legion to draenor. But they're still not a part of the Iron Horde.
the Burning Blade were all berserkers that were led by the Ogres
That was only partially true, they were also the origin of the legendary blademasters that even today serve the horde (the playable horde that is). Nevertheless, after a more thorough lookout, turns out the Burning Blade is in fact part of the iron horde, and their leading warlord is Azuka Bladefury, with their base of operations in Nagrand. Why wasn't their warlord mentioned with the "Big Six" I have no idea. More anti-women treatment by blizz? (I'm conjecturing on that one since Azuka sounds like a female name)
the Laughing Skull were all treacherous deceptive manipulative bastards also led by an Ogre
Hey now, I'll remind you that they made a pact with the alliance in Beyond the Dark Portal, and they kept their end of the bargain and didn't betrayed anyone. Also in the original timeline they refused to join the first horde, so its not that crazy that they'd refuse to join the Iron Horde as well.
Anyhows, the Laughing Skull is confirmed to
NOT
ally with the Iron Horde, and is in fact one of the factions we can gain reputation with.
the Bonechewers were the guards of the portal who were destroyed by Ner'zhul(so I guess that one could work)
Indeed.
the Black Tooth Grin was created after the wars by Rend and Maim following the death of Blackhand, , and the Searing Blade is the sister clan of the Burning Blade who were not formed till after Durotar was settled and they worked under the new Shadow Council to try to overthrow Thrall from within Ragefire.
Fair enough on those two, its also why I didn't mentioned the Twilight Hammer clan, or the Rageroar or Dragonmaw clan. its obvious all of those were formed after the orcs arrived on Azeroth.
There are several more clans that are enigmas at this point because they're neither confirmed as part of the Iron Horde, nor confirmed to be allies either, so they could go either way.
These include the Bonechewer, Palemoon, Mok'nathal, Lightning Blade, and more importantly, the clans that originally refused to join the first horde in the original timeline: Dark Scar Bladewind, Redwalker, and Whiteclaw clan.
So that's a hell of a lot of clans right there that are feasible to not join the Iron Horde. Specially the last four, because those refused to join too in the original timeline.
Publication par
Adamsm
I can't see the Mok's working with either group to be honest; they are a pacifist group. And I know the Laughing Skull worked with the Grand Alliance, but that was the actual description of the Clan from Warcraft II instruction manual.
Publication par
Rankkor
I can't see the Mok's working with either group to be honest; they are a pacifist group.
Maybe not "joining" the alliance or the horde, but if they oppose the Iron Horde, they'll likely need our help to survive. In that regard we may work together even if after that they just dismiss us from their lands.
And I know the Laughing Skull worked with the Grand Alliance, but that was the actual description of the Clan from Warcraft II instruction manual.
Yeah well, when it comes to Warcraft 1 and 2 a lot of things have to be taken with a lot of salt, I mean, that same manual said Garona was half human. And that was the game where Dalaran was in a Cross-shaped island, etc.
Publication par
Adamsm
If they oppose the Iron Horde, we'll probably have to stop them from wiping them out...and depending on Rexxar, it could be a case of fighting him as well, since he was the exception to his clan and wanted to join the war.
Course, when the Laughing Skull worked with the Grand Alliance, Ner'zhul was already turning on the Clans so...and this will be one that is around from before. It could be that the Skull's are the Alterac of the Clans, but we'll have to wait and see.
Publication par
Morec0
Anyone else hoping to see Blackhand's daughter Griselda? I don't know what she'd do, but it would be neat to see her - I doubt we'll be seeing Rend and Maim, though, given they'd just be kids (unless Blizzard decides to change that).
Publication par
Adamsm
Anyone else hoping to see Blackhand's daughter Griselda? I don't know what she'd do, but it would be neat to see her - I doubt we'll be seeing Rend and Maim, though, given they'd just be kids (unless Blizzard decides to change that).
Rend and Maim and Griselda were all adults during the First War; would be very easy to see R&M as commanders of the Blackrock forces. As for Griselda, who knows; but since she turned on her father for never giving her a chance at power and ran off with her ogre lover, they could do something there as well.
Publication par
Morec0
Anyone else hoping to see Blackhand's daughter Griselda? I don't know what she'd do, but it would be neat to see her - I doubt we'll be seeing Rend and Maim, though, given they'd just be kids (unless Blizzard decides to change that).
Rend and Maim and Griselda were all adults during the First War; would be very easy to see R&M as commanders of the Blackrock forces. As for Griselda, who knows; but since she turned on her father for never giving her a chance at power and ran off with her ogre lover, they could do something there as well.
Weren't Rend and Maim children aged artificially by the Warlocks, though? Or was that BEFORE drinking demon blood or was it retconned altogether?
Publication par
oneforthemoney
Anyone else hoping to see Blackhand's daughter Griselda? I don't know what she'd do, but it would be neat to see her - I doubt we'll be seeing Rend and Maim, though, given they'd just be kids (unless Blizzard decides to change that).
Rend and Maim and Griselda were all adults during the First War; would be very easy to see R&M as commanders of the Blackrock forces. As for Griselda, who knows; but since she turned on her father for never giving her a chance at power and ran off with her ogre lover, they could do something there as well.
Weren't Rend and Maim children aged artificially by the Warlocks, though? Or was that BEFORE drinking demon blood or was it retconned altogether?
They probably kept the aging children thing for convenience sake.
Publication par
Adamsm
They were and it was before the drinking of the Blood; that only happened shortly before the Battle of Shattrah occurred and the First War started about 2-5 years after that. However, to prove what a good supporter he was of the Shadow Council who put him into power, Blackhand offered up all three of his kids to the aging thing as a way to show the other clan leaders it wasn't that bad. The exact ages aren't given for all three, but they would have been teens following it.
Edit: Yeah, Garrosh shows up to stop them drinking the Blood but he didn't go back to stop the Warlock corruption from occurring; the fact that Gul'dan is all locky and Ner'zhul is using non-shamanistic abilities is showing that that part of history still occurred.
Publication par
Morec0
I really hope they get Gul'dan's custom model done soon.
Publication par
Rankkor
If they oppose the Iron Horde, we'll probably have to stop them from wiping them out...
That's what I just said :P
and depending on Rexxar, it could be a case of fighting him as well, since he was the exception to his clan and wanted to join the war.
Except this horde is not the same as the old one, so its possible for him to not join. Consider that the iron horde enslaves gronns and ogres, and the "missing link" between the two, the orgronn. Not exactly what a half-breed orc-ogre would like to join. At least in the original horde, the ogres were used yes, but not enslaved with chains, they were simply too stupid and were easily convinced to join up willingly.
Course, when the Laughing Skull worked with the Grand Alliance, Ner'zhul was already turning on the Clans so...
Hmmm, I don't follow what you mean bro'.
and this will be one that is around from before. It could be that the Skull's are the Alterac of the Clans
Why? is it really that inconceivable to imagine more than one orc clan refusing to join the iron horde? several clans refused to join the original horde as well. And in this timeline there's at least 4 confirmed clans that flat out say no.
regarding rend, maim, and griselda, I doubt we'll see them. This horde doesn't seem like its very warlock inclined.
Yeah, Garrosh shows up to stop them drinking the Blood but he didn't go back to stop the Warlock corruption from occurring
How do you know? the frostwolves have shaman, whereas in the original timeline, they quickly replaced them with warlocks as did everyone else when the elements stopped aiding the shamans.
the fact that Gul'dan is all locky
That doesn't really prove anything, Garrosh traveled to the past, outed Gul'dan for the scheming bastard he was, and steered the horde towards technology rather than fel magic, but gul'dan still kept practicing shadow magic on his own, and presumably spread his teachings to his clan, but there's no evidence of warlocks on any other clan, either in or out of the Iron Horde.
Some Iron Horde clans like the bleeding hollow even have shaman still.
and Ner'zhul is using non-shamanistic abilities
He's actually using a darker form of shamanism. Remember that being a shaman is a two-part job. True you're a conduct for the elements giving and taking from them to keep balance, but shaman also are related to the dead, in that they commune with the spirits and the ghosts of the departed.
We already saw a darker branch of shamanism in SoO with the Dark Shaman forcing the elements to obey, Ner'zhul is showing us now the other dark branch of shamanism, where necromancy forces the dead to obey as well.
But still ner'zhul is not a warlock, neither is his skin green, nor any of his clan. In fact I think the only green skinned orcs in all of outland are the Stormreavers.
And now some offtopic: Why is Alternate!Drek'thar blind? I was under the impression that he lost his sight AFTER he crossed over to azeroth. Back when he was a young shaman in the original timeline, there was absolutely no mention at all of him being blind in Rise of the Horde.
and Ner'zhul is using non-shamanistic abilities is showing that that part of history still occurred.
Publication par
Rankkor
I really hope they get Gul'dan's custom model done soon.
And I really hope we get to kick his ass so hard his face becomes ass and his ass becomes face.
Publication par
Adamsm
Hmmm, I don't follow what you mean bro'.He sent his clan after the Bonechewers to get an artifact and wiped them out, and was working hard with the G1 DK's and Deathwing to escape but didn't want to take everyone with them; the Skulls saw and that realized their best interest was to work with the group not attempting to wipe them out...course we know that didn't last too long.
Why? is it really that inconceivable to imagine more than one orc clan refusing to join the iron horde? several clans refused to join the original horde as well. And in this timeline there's at least 4 confirmed clans that flat out say no.It's not...but when the clan is question is not trusted by any other clan(right from their description) it seems like the Skull are the dark horses of the clans and would possibly fall back on simpler answers if offered; after all, if you are the clan that the others spit on and if the Iron Horde was willing to help you remove that stigma, why the heck not join up.
As for how we know Rank.....Blizzard told us that Garrosh only went back to stop them from drinking the Blood; so please pray tell, how would they have summoned in Mannoroth if there were no Warlocks around. Look, I get it, I do...but the fact is, Garrosh did not go back all of the way and keep the Fel corruption from hitting the orcs. You'll still see aged children, and the reason why not all of the orcs are green is because they didn't drink the Blood or start the full on rampant corruption just yet; don't forgot in Rise of the Horde, just before the Blood was drunk, the Frostwolves were seeing their skin flake off and the green was coming through. Now, it's possible that because of Garrosh the Orcs were able to get the ancestors back on their side and some of the clans could reclaim their shamanistic abilities...but again, and you said it yourself: The Legion had a toe hold on Alternate Draenor and while Garrosh exposed Gul'dan, the Stormreavers are still warlock based.
Myself, if it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, and we know that the Time Warp only dropped Garrosh anywhere from a year to three years before the Blood, the Fel aging would still have occurred since it started shortly after the War were declared.
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