Feral Armor is too high, is not the fault of Bear form but the itemaization

Publication par Sirena

In the last Build GC said Bear form was too good, too good that deserve a nerf, well i understand the fact that in TBC we have too much Armor, but Why bear form is to blame?

The fact is they make feral weapon with armor, trinket with armor, and other many item that shouldn't have armor, They continue to do this in Wotlk but reduce bear form armor bonus, Will this Greatly restrict what we can choose as there are only a few armored staff and jewelery?

I think they should just rise the armor bonus back and remove all armor from all unessary item, no other tank need that small bonus of armor(no bonus) ...........

Publication par Sgtpain

I was hoping for the same. We get pretty restricted on what we can use, for the simply fact that we have to share leather items with another class that doesn't tank. Instead of making us weed through alot of leather armor and find the stuff we need, why not have the talents and multiplyers make up for it instead. Warriors and pallies now use the same armor, so it makes it really simple for them now, but it's still going to be a struggle for us.

Publication par 173881

This post was from a user who has deleted their account.

Publication par Sirena

With the removal of crushing blows from raid bosses in Wrath druids' bear form armor multiplier became unbalanced and blizzard has been working out how much it need to be reduced as a result. Bear for is very much "to blame" because it was designed for a situation which no longer applies.

The problem is Bear form is just a multiplier, The real problem is the other item varies druid's armor too much, making a gap between before raid and after raid, i have check for some armored item:

there are ONLY 4 Feral staff with armor on it at level 80, and they provide over 700 armor(actually feral weapon need to be address that we should able to use other tank weapon)

At level 80 there are fewer and fewer armored item, 3 amulet, 4 rings, and 2 trinket.
If we need all of this to just archieve a average Damage migration, it is very depressing. Why there are so many tank item we can't use just because Armor WAS too good?

Remove all armor will also help blizzard to manage Bear's armor as armor will now only come from armor that rogue don't really interest at

Publication par Abraxxes

the 3 amulet, 4 rings, and 2 trinkets with armor can be used by more than feral druids, there meant for all tanks really, more armor=more physical dmg reduction they are not druid only

the only thing you can comment on is our weapons, but once you think about it the ones without any armor are basically dps and if u noticed the ones with armor are obviously for tanking(which you said) but they have the armor because we don't get the 8k armor wars/paladins have from shields and leather is at least 1/2 the armor of plate now..... we will have almost the exact same armor as a warrior/paladin with wrath, its already been stated by some1 in beta that they have 24k armor, which is 62% mitigation and as of right now i see some moderately geared wars/paladins with 20k armor in TBC

in TBC we needed the 36k armor because of the whole crushable thing, crits deal 200% dmg and all tanks can become uncrittable through talents/def rating/resilience, and crushing blows deal 150% damage and can come quite often, thats why paladins have a spell that makes them uncrushable( i think its holy shield) and warriors can use shield wall(?) to dodge them but feral druids can not, we have to get hit so we need that armor to make uncrushable blows deal just a little bit more damage than the average hit on a paladin/warrior tank

~~lrn grammer plz(ik mine isn't the best im just saying)~~

just read somewhere that u play on taiwan servers meaning english isn't main language

Publication par Sirena

just read somewhere that u play on taiwan servers meaning english isn't main language

Thanks for your understandingT_T.

the 3 amulet, 4 rings, and 2 trinkets with armor can be used by more than feral druids, there meant for all tanks really, more armor=more physical dmg reduction they are not druid only
The armor provided by these items isn't really meaningful to other tanks(oh maybe DK) as they don't have such a large armor multipier like us, let the armor of different tanks vary so much is not a good idea........

Why don't just remove the armor from those items? This ensure balance between tanks and lower the armor requirement(if they rise the mulitplier of bear form back) for raiding bear, as we are going to share same gears with rogue.

Publication par Aadramelekh

Believe me when I say that feral druids will be just fine with their armor after the changes in itemisation and specific multipliers.

Take a look at this: I was tanking Maexxna in 10 man Naxxramas, using classic tank lvl 70 rings (The violet Signet and the 60 badge reward ring), the Badge of Tenacity and a 335 armor necklace. All other gear is lvl 80 blues from dungeons and quests mostly. Feral staff with NO armor here.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y239/BlackHeart004/WoWScrnShot_092708_230559.jpg

You see I have close to 25K armor raid buffed. With an armor staff this will get close to 27.5K armor. With all the ilvl 200 epics I can get and a good armor staff, plus the better armored rings in WotLK, the bear druids will still remain the armor champions, at close to 29K. Taking also into account that the Protector of the Pack gives a further 12% DMG reduction and that Barkskin (20% DMG reduction) is now usable in forms and it has a 1 min cooldown, believe me whtn I say that druids will still remain probably the best at damage reduction and stamina pool.

Note: I had 44K HP there using Survival Instincts (+30% HP for 20 seconds, 3 min CD). Raid buffed normal HP was 34K.

Publication par Sirena

Aadramelekh, i want you ask you 2 question ? May i :)?

Do you think you will able be able to tank fine without the armour bonus from non-leather?

Do you prefer to use item with armor that slightly weak in other bonus, than other items with better bonus but no armor?

I know the armor of the Bear is not that bad in Wotlk :) but i worry will the armored item limited the choice of Tank items for bear, create a large armor gap between different raid tier that low tier Bear can't catch up the migration of raid, Or make Bear have Too much advantage in Phyical Migration in later stage of raid. Hence i have those suggestion. :)

Publication par Aadramelekh

Without the armor bonus from the non leather... Hmmm... Let's see how much that would mean. I assume you refer to necklace (335 armor), rings (392 x 2 armor) and trinket (300 armor). I had a zero armor staff and a normal 140 armor cloak. The armor from those four listed items is as such: 335+392+392+300=6669. That brings me in the situation where I would have had only around 18300 armor. That is somewhere along the line of 50% damage reduction. Which is pretty big difference from the ~63% damage reduction that 25000 armor provided. Without the armor items the tanking potential for a bear drops dramatically I would say. But hey, that's why we have all the armor jewels (necklace and rings) plus the armored staves there. Even some armored trinkets. Because we still need higher armor than other classes to compensate for our lesser avoidance (no parry, no block) by increasing our mitigation.

To answer your first question, I would say that tanking heroics with 18300 armor is not at all a hard task. But moving into 10 man raids with only that amount of armor... Even, say, with ilvl 200 epics, having some 20000 armor would be kinda low for raid bosses. In enrage, when I had 25000 armor, Maexxna hit me for around 6-7K almost each second for 4 seconds and with a 34K HP tank, that can spell "wipe" if he is not topped before the raid stun happens. Sure, that is why I was using Survival Instincts and Barkskin every time I thought necessary.

But let's think like this: replacing those tank designed items with DPS oriented ones: necklaces and rings with stamina and agility (besides AP, hit, crit and other stuff not important to damage mitigation). Having 6669 less armor but, say, 100 or so more agility and maybe even less stamina is NOT an option. 2% more avoidance for 12-14% less mitigation? I would be mad to do so in a raid. In a heroic maybe it would work. But NOT in a raid, be it 10 man and less so 25 man. That is why items like the Keystone Great-Ring or the Amulet of Autopsy are there. Not to mention Staff of the Plague Beast.

Which brings me to your second question. YES, I would pick up items like those mentioned before over rings and necklaces with no armor any day for tanking. Because mitigation is bears' best friend after all. Having the highest damage reduction and the highest stamina pool must still remain a bear's primary goals. The fact that we can now use Barkskin in forms and have Survival Instincts is for a reason: TO USE THEM everytime we are in trouble. To make ourselves more resistant to spike damage and to allow more efficient mana usage and conservation for healers. I have tanked all Naxxramas for the first time that day I took the screenshot (had no idea about any tactics at all) and I was told that I did it better than all other tanks that group had (mostly Warriors and Death Knights) before. Because I had the highest survivability. And so did Blizzard admit officially when they said they were worried Bear tanks were so good in Naxxramas that they might have to slightly nerf them in order not to take the Warriors' place in a situation like in Burning Crusade, where most people preferred Warriors for tanking, over Bears or Paladins, and thus the Bears may become the new tanking kings in WotLK. But whatever the way, My raid tanking experience in WotLK was great, and I am confident that Bears will be just fine in Northrend.

Later edit: even if I think that armored jewels are a must for serious raid tanking, an armored trinket might be not that great of a requirement once you have gear along the lines of Origin of Nightmares. And especially if you take the Thick Hide talent. With that, then the bears might once again become the best mitigation-based meatpile in game. For reference, let's do some little math again:

Belt
Wrist
Feet
Hands
Head
Legs
Chest
Shoulders
Ring1
Ring2
Necklace
Staff
Cloak

No armored trinkets taken into account. From all these, a Druid gets around 5660 armor. With Thick Hide, it goes close to 6230. In Dire Bear Form, that is close to 29300 armor. With ~800 agility, you add 1600 armor. With MotW, you add 750 armor. The resulting figure goes around 31600 armor. Without Thick Hide, that would still be somewhere around 29000. That is pretty close to 66-67% damage reduction against a raid boss. Let's say ~67%. That means received damage is around 33% of the total. With Protector of the Pack in the mix, we get another 4% physical mitigation. So the bear will have about 71% physical damage reduction against a raid boss. Plus 12% magic. Toss in Barkskin on command and we are kings of mitigation once again. This is at ilvl 200 epics! In 25 man T7 raids, ilvl 213 and 226 epic will drop. MOAR ARMOR! MOAR MITIGATION ZOMG! I bet we'll be back on the throne of 75% physical mitigation in high T7 content (25 man raids that is).

Feral Armor is too high, is not the fault of Bear form but the itemaization

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