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Will 2h still be viable?
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297431
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188262
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Post by
Eleazer
2Hand will still be viable in Unholy and Blood. For frost it will not be. There will be no change to 2h blood builds or rotation. The only changes are unholy where BS will actually be used now and Frost, where 2h is dead and DW is dps
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Post by
Aris
Yea i don't see DW killing 2h at all. 6 points is a fairly hefty price to make DW work at all.
Also because of where ToT is located, your required to put 52 points into frost which means your wasting an extra talent point that could be put into the blood or unholy tree.
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Post by
Aris
At the end we have:
Strikes: 2h <= DW
Diseases: 2h = DW
White damage: 2h < DW
I agree with the first two. Since what you wield really shouldnt effect disease damage at all, and the slightly higher base damage Dual Wielders will get with ToT over using a 2H'er will offset the higher chance to miss.
I'm still not sold that white damage will be more with DW. More important maybe, but just because your hitting the target more often doesnt mean you'll be doing more damage than 2H after you factor in damage loss in the off-hand and increased chance to miss/be dodged.
So i think DW will end up looking like this:
Strike 2h = DW
Diseases 2h = DW
White Damage: dependant on gear.
Another factor against DW is the fact that you now need two good weapons instead of just one. You can play hypothetical games all day long, at the end of the day it wont mean anything if your guild gives 1h'ers to rogues/shaman over you or you just aren't lucky enough to have two of every weapon you need as an upgrade drop and you win it.
The last factor working against DW is the fact that you need 6 additional talent points to make it work that people using a 2h'er don't need. Also your pigeon holed into the frost tree whereas you can pick any tree if you use a 2h'er.
Post by
Eleazer
There is an entire thread dedicated to how DW Frost DPS works. 2H is essentially dead for 3 main reasons.
1. A serious nerf to Frost strike, makes hitting with it twice more effective than hitting with it once. Because FS/OB/BS have seperate crit rates on DW than they do on 2h
2. Dual disease is now optimal for all builds this decrease the use of FS once again.
3. You have to put points in non-essential things in order to get 2h now.
Finally, to end this conversation. Yes, the hit cap goes way up, but in essence you will only need to get to 17 percent hit cap and you will be fine. This isn't hypothetical we are talking about this is PTR testing where 2h frost which thrived on single disease application and huge frost strikes to get their dps is now a good 700-2k dps behind DW frost builds. Getting 2 slow weapons is easy.
You may not like the change, but it's coming so Frost needs to get used to it. The one thing I dislike the most is how big the nerf to FS is, but I understand why they did it. With the FS nerf and the buff to diseases it forces a longer rotation and takes away from the huge bonus to Frost 2h.
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142889
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Post by
Eleazer
Well, considering I have actually tested it, and found that my frost strikes and Obliterates were the same with DW as they were with 2h except my melee was higher, and with dual crit rates for both hands. It ended up coming up significantly higher, but if you still don't believe me.
The reason I am one of the few talking about the death of 2H is that the guys posting it's still viable are not actually testing it, they are just saying it. There is a big difference. I have been on the PTR and did some initial and other forms of testing Lynri being the only other PTR tester I know of who posts regularly here is so upset about it after doing the testing on PTR that he almost quit the game. Remember that Lynri was one of the major proponets that Frost 2h dps was viable dps in 3.1. He also stood where you did and said I don't see it. So he did what you should do, and tested it on the PTR, and it is sad to see the difference in dps between DW and 2H.
Elitist jerks is a major source of information regarding the viability of dps, as they do extensive testing. Basically there are two types of Frost DPS builds and rotations IT Machine gun and Howling blast build, both thrived on single disease application. If you are dual diseasing in 3.1 frost than you are hurting your dps.
Here are the two Elitist Jerks thread that deal with testing on the PTR.
http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t64830-dw_builds_3_2_revenge_offhand_updated_7_22_09_a/
http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t59946-frozen_blows_frost_dps_updated_06_11_09_a/
It has gotten to the point where there isn't even a discussion about 2h Frost dps anymore. I don't like it anymore than you, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles.
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142889
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Post by
Eleazer
I know wolf. Gone are the beautiful Frost Strike and Obliterate crits, and with tighter rotations gone are the 5 or 6 consecutive FS spam. I love frost, because I love big crits it's fun. I almost cried when I went on to PTR and did some testing and didn't see 1 11k FS crit with 2h. It's more than just a small nerf to FS. The largest crit I could muster on 2h was 6.9k, and when I got a miss I almost cried
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