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Varian Thread
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Post by
Skreeran
Maybe Jaina isn't telling him for some reason?Do you really think that's likely?
And Darkton, two things...
1. I've already said, Thrall did drop the ball with the Forsaken. He trusted Sylvanas to govern her own people and she failed.
2. The Forsaken never experimented on children, as far as we know.
Post by
358417
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
Or maybe she already told him and that's why he hasn't been bothering with Garona lately.Much more likely, imo.
Post by
HiVolt
1. I've already said, Thrall did drop the ball with the Forsaken. He trusted Sylvanas to govern her own people and she failed.
I don't think it's fair to blame Thrall for that incident. You can't blame someone for trusting an ally to lead their own people. Thrall may well have not known about the Blight until the Wrathgate, as it was developed in secret.
You can argue that Thrall's authority is supreme in the Horde, but that has no bearing on his personality or willingness to trust people, and thus, him trusting Sylvanas to govern the Forsaken can't mean that he dropped the ball.
Sylvanas is the
only one
who can be blamed for the Wrathgate, Putress and Varimathras aside.
Post by
Skreeran
Well, I don't really blame Thrall or her for the Wrathgate, merely the human testing and Varimathas being allowed to lead.. Thrall trusted that she could follow Horde ideals, and she couldn't.
And of course it doesn't make me love Thrall any less. He made a mistake, but he's still an amazing leader.
Post by
Patty
Sorry, but I think that you're lying.
Of course! You know me so well for your judgement to be absolutely true, and I trust you, don't I old buddy, old chum!
/end sarcasm
Post by
Rankkor
well darkton, I didn't continued this last night because I was tired, but today I'm renewed.
dude, you are a stubborn one, you without lore, without any kind of proof wanna pretend that you know what you talk about, well let's see how this glove fits, you want proof? I'll give you proof.
Please give up and stop pretending to know what happend. Moonbrook has was razed after his abduction, and you can't prove other-wise
you say it was razed after his abduction? and I can't prove otherwise? ok time to prove otherwise.
the key to this entire puzzle is a fellow named Stalvan Mismantle
here is his article on wowwiki.
http://www.wowwiki.com/Stalvan
on the same article there is the questline "the legend of stalvan" wich is the main proof that moonbrook fell BEFORE his abduction.
first let's establish a timeline here.
stalvan was a fellow from silverpine, he moved out of there just as the third war was starting because he wanted a peacefull place to teach,
since you demand proof for every sentence I say, here is the proof: a letter written by stalvan wich you find during his quest-chain
http://www.wowwiki.com/A_Dusty_Unsent_Letter
moving on, after the fall of moonbrook stalvan fled the place, and seek a job as a private tutor for a local noble family of stormwind, were he fell in love with the daughter of the noble, and went crazy when the girl didn't loved him back,. due to this, he proceeded to murder the entire family, and then fled to duskwood.
now, all of this I said it yesterday, on this block
no it's not, did you ever do the quest of the legend of stalvan? he was a human teacher, who worked in moonbrook for a while as a school teacher, but had to flee when the town was razed, after that he became a private tutor to a noble family, and then killed them all due to some inner problems..... the point is that moonbrook isn't somethign that just happened a few days before vainilla wow
and what was your response?
Vanila WoW was months after Varian's abduction, so this could make perfect sence
well dude, true that vainilla wow was months after varian's abduction, but the fall of moonbrook wasn't months ago, it was years, and there is written lore that says specifically "YEARS", and I'll show you that lore rite now.
so, for clarity's sake varian was kidnapped just as vainilla wow was starting, by the time we start the game, he hasn't been missing for years, no no no, he was missing for months maybe days, but I'm willing to let the bar slide, let's pretend is as you say, months, varian was abducted months ago, but not years ago.
if varian wasn't abducted years ago, then anything that happened years ago, hapened while he was on stormwind (is that clear?)
good, if you do the stalvan mismantle quest-chain, you find out that on this quest
after the fall of moonbrook, stalvan fled westfall, and headed for the lion's pride inn on goldshire, there he wrote a letter to the noble family he was gonna be tutoring, to ask their employment.
this is the letter:
http://www.wowwiki.com/An_Undelivered_Letter
when you go to lion's pride inn to ask about stalvan, the innkeeper delivers this answer "
The name Stalvan rings a bell. I remember now.
Many years back
, on a stormy night, a messenger came in, seeking refuge for the night
and the proof that this conversation is real, and not made up is her
http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:The_Legend_of_Stalvan_
(5)
wait, it gets better, after following the clues to the stormwind canal, we get an intresting chat with the local caretaker:
this is the quest:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:The_Legend_of_Stalvan_
(6)
this is what the caretaker says
My father
was the caretaker of the estate
long before I was
.
He had to mop the blood up after the massacre. But that's neither here nor there.
what does this tells us? that the massacre of stalvan didni't just happened a few months back as you sugested, it happened a long time ago, but wait, it gets better, they specifically say WHEN it happened.
read on pls.
on this quest
http://www.wowwiki.com/Quest:The_Legend_of_Stalvan_
(10)
we talk to the innkeeper of the darkshire inn, this is what he says about the massacre of stalvan
I followed the legend of that Stalvan character
for years
When those visiting nobles
were slaughtered a few years back
I went with Haggard to investigate.
JA! there is your evidence pal!
what does this has to do with anything?
let's clear up the conclution of this post savvy?
Stalvan murdered the noble family, however we know that he did so AFTER moonbrook was razed, the letter shown above says that he was teh headmaster of that school, and the second letter states that he left the school specifically because the entire town was razed and he fled for his life.
it was after he fled, that he murdered the noble family, and this didn't happened "a few months ago" as you sugested darkton, it happened a few years ago.
varian wasn't kidnapped a few years ago, he was kidnapped just as vainilla wow was starting.
if stalvan murdered the nobles a few years ago, then moonbrook fell a few years ago, and the people's militia was founded a few years ago, and since a few years ago varian was still in stormwind eating of katrana's hand, that means that when moonbrook and the entire region of westfall needed help he did nothing.
BOOM BABY, now what do you gotta say about that?
Please prove this.
I just did, now you prove why you are right, or admit defeat.
This would have to mean your fantasy world of WoW is true, and its not.
it didn't happened in my fantasy world of wow, written lore from vainila says that stalvan murdered the noble family years ago, and he did that AFTER the fall of moonbrook wich means moonbrook also fell YEARS AGO.
it is you who are living on a fantasy land where moonbrook fell after varian was kidnapped, well if you got lore to back those words mister, let's see it.............. (crickets sounds) I tought so...
Or mabye we did not see that because.... you made it up?
darkton, baby, if there is something you MUST know about me is that I NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER (repeat 999999999 times) EVER make something up.
whenever u can't provide a proper response to a debate, you say I made it up, but news flash kiddo, I didn't, you said I made it up the triks of sylvannas on the battle for the undercity, and it's proven that I didn't, now you said that I made it up that we never saw a runner from moonbrook asking for aid because it happened before the game started several years ago and you said that I made it up.
guess what? I didn't, I never make something up.
Why don't you just accept it? Seriously, just take defeat like a man . You have been beat. It happens sometimes
why don't you accept it? proven written lore established that varian was on stormwind when moonbrook fell, and he did nothing to protect it, and nothing to get it back, he did nothing at all, he was mind-controlled, and during his mind-controll his actions (or rather inactions) led to the needless deaths of hundreds of people.
from your theory, varian get's kidnapped, then moonbrook gets razed, then stalvan flees, then he works for the noble family, then he kills them, then he moves to duskwood, and then vainilla wow starts.
but you got no lore to back that up.
this is my confirmed theory
Varian is on stormwind, defias start to atack moonbrook they plea for help, the town get's razed, other survivors of westfall (stalvan wasn't the only one that escaped alive) also plead for aid in stormwind, they get the finger so they form the people's militia to protect the region, then stalvan works for the noble family, then he kills them, fleds to duskwood, and then a few years later, varian get's kidnapped, and then a few months later, vainilla wow starts.
just as I dug this up, I can dig up about the nightwatch if you give me time.
the point is, give it up darkton, VARIAN WAS ON STORMWIND WHEN ALL OF THIS HAPPENED, and you can't prove otherwise.
I can however, i just proved that the fall of moonbrook, and by proxy the fall of the entire zone of westfall and the formation of the people's militia happened long before varian was abducted.
now if you are too stubborn to admit defeat, then provide proof of why you are so ritght. otherwise your're just looking like a fool in front of the rest of the forums.
Post by
358417
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
I never said that, I said despite not being in a childhood experience as gory as that, or war-filled, I have been influenced by my childhood which was not all daisy chains and playing nicely. As I've said, I never became as filled with hatred as Varian has considering his circumstances, which is why I dislike him. I never said "my dad got his heart ripped out by a half-orc diplomat/assassin who was mind-controlled into doing it."
So I did not make any form of claim you say I have.
Post by
358417
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Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
358417
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
358417
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
If he did go after Garona for revenge, I'd consider that to be a reasonable reaction to the trauma of seeing your fathers heart ripped out before your eyes when you were around ten, although I'm sure the Horde fanboys when just attribute it to "racism" as they tend to do whenever someone doesn't like them.So where does him threatening to kill Med'an fall into that scenario? I can see going after Garona, as much as I hate it, but saying he was going to kill her son in front of her, just to see her suffer? That's more then revenge.
But, he's getting past his hatreds, I just hope it continues. Myself, I really don't care if Varian continues the war against Garrosh and his darker horde, as that would help Thrall, removing the more militaristic and violent aspects of the Horde once and for all.
Post by
Patty
There's still a huge difference between anger and being consumed by it. zomg jedi principle.
Thrall and Jaina are human, they make mistakes, they feel emotion. When say, Doomhammer died, Thrall did not want to go on a genocidal rampage on the Humans, did he? He did what Doomhammer would have wanted, to lead his people.
Post by
taurenmoo812
If he did go after Garona for revenge, I'd consider that to be a reasonable reaction to the trauma of seeing your fathers heart ripped out before your eyes when you were around ten, although I'm sure the Horde fanboys when just attribute it to "racism" as they tend to do whenever someone doesn't like them.So where does him threatening to kill Med'an fall into that scenario? I can see going after Garona, as much as I hate it, but saying he was going to kill her son in front of her, just to see her suffer? That's more then revenge.
But, he's getting past his hatreds, I just hope it continues. Myself, I really don't care if Varian continues the war against Garrosh and his darker horde, as that would help Thrall, removing the more militaristic and violent aspects of the Horde once and for all.
I totally agree. It'll put a test up of where someone stands with the horde, do you side with Thrall and all he's done to safeguard his people and try to find peace with the alliance, no matter how fickle it might be, or do you stand with Garrosh and want to just kill all none orcs and cause the horde to fall into a dark horde status again?
I think you know my answer to that. And just because I dislike aspects of the alliance doesn't mean I wouldn't want there to be a resolve, war just leads to a circle of more death and hate.
Post by
Rankkor
Thrall and Jaina are ghandi-like pacifists who never get angry at anyone ever
wrong and double wrong.
thrall got extremely angry at blackmoore for killing thareta, he beheaded him for that.
thrall got extremely angry at varimathras and putress for their betrayal that costed so many horde heroes on the warthgate, enough that he let personally the battle to put him to justice.
thrall got angry at daelin proudmoore for atacking razor hill, and killed him after he refused to surrender.
what makes thrall and varian diferent though, is that while thrall is capable of rage and fury, he doesn't guide himself by it.
when someone wrongs thrall, he first investigates, and after he's sure the culprit is guilty behond anything else, then he takes action.
after theramoore, why did valeera stood behind? why didn't she returned to stormwind with varian? because she stayed to investigate.
and investigate she did, she talked to garona personally, saved her son, talked to maraad, she knows a great deal about both garona, and her unique condition, however, she has returned to stormwind at least once, because at the alliance version of the battle for undercity, there she was next to varian.
if she stood behind to investigate, and indeed she learned quite a lot, and now she's with varian, then she has told him already.
as patty said, just because no comic-panel shows it doesn't mean it didn't happened, after all, we never saw varian and tiffling dancing the naked tango, and yet we asume they did, because anduin was born, and tifflin isn't the virgin mary.
what makes varian inferior to thrall is what he has done with such information.
varian not only learned that the assassin of his father, was inocent, she was forced to comit the deed, just as he was forced to ignore the pleas of aid of his people when katrana had him under controll, and now that he has this info, he dismisses it, still believing the orcs to be treacherus people.
he learned also, that the attack on theramoore was the action of the twillingth hammer (again valeera learned all of this) and yet, has he offered an apology to thrall of acusing him of treason?
varian called thrall a traitor, a backstabber, and acused him of conspiracy for assassination, he didn't knew at the time, but he knows now, and has he changed his views on the horde? nope.
thrall didn't knew about what the forsaken did to develop their plage, as the forsaken kept it secret for a long time, on WOTLK they revealed their secret but incomplete weapon, and perfected it on northrend however, after the results of the wrathgate, thrall took action.
so yhea he didn't know before, but after he learned the truth, he did somethign about it, and put the production of blight to a screeching halt, better than that, he placed the RAS under permanent house arrest and supervision by kor'kron overseers, and not happy enough about that, deployed a full regiment of orcs to replace the horrid abominations developed by the forsaken.
varian didn't knew that the horde was inocent of theramoore, but he knows now, and has he done anything with that info? nope, nothing, nada.
again, if someone kills my father, and I witness the deed, I'd be angry too, and would demand the killer to be put to justice (with either jail, or execution)
but if 20 years later, I learn that the person I tought the killer was in fact framed, and inocent all along, maybe I wound't forgive the killer and invite him for a coup of tea, but at the very least, I would stop demanding that person to be imprisoned or executed.
Post by
358417
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Basically, what I'm asking is why can't you guys accept that Varian isn't Garithos 2.0 and that he's, in the end, a good guy? I can admit that Thrall is lawful good, perhaps to a fault, so why do you guys insist that Varian is a badguy?Heh, I don't think like that..... except where Garona is concerned anyways.
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