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Tanking tricks
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Post by
355293
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aris
Glyph of DnD
Morbidity
Glyph of HB
Also consider dropping Rime for Chilblains to slow all adds when you use HB on them if you have HB glyphed. It'll keep things from running off to ranged dps and make it easier to keep them all close and in your D&D.
Make sure your hit capped so your spells don't miss, and yes D&D can miss a tick.
You need to have good "operational awareness" when pulling trash. You need to know if something is coming before it gets to you, and prepare to have runes available to toss down a HB or D&D to grab them when they do.
You can always pop Blood Tap or Empowered Rune Weapon to get runes if their on cooldown and you need one to use HB or D&D.
If all else fails you can use a BB with no diseases up to at least grab some aggro until you have runes available for HB since you dont need blood runes for HB.
Make sure your raid knows to stand in your D&D if they have adds on them.
Understand that if you spec/glyph and gear for aoe threat gen that your single target threat gen may suffer a little. For our raids, i have a prot warrior tank bosses, and i always tank adds so the loss of single target threat gen isnt really an issue for me.
Post by
Nystali
You just have to get timing down...
HB has a 8 second cooldown. Generally a single howling blast will do great on gathering new mobs. I often save my DnD for emergencies during a fight so its not on cooldown (I'm not specced into Morbidity) and generally just use a rotation of HB->BB->BB->OB (maybe a Rime procs).
Since you talked about Heigan, I assume Noth would be another example where you might have issues as you get closer to him teleporting and maybe holding on to all the skeletons while the dps continues to mainly single target him. If you do use this strategy (as opposed to downing them as they come out), its generally only you beating on the skeletons so you don't have to worry so much on producing so much threat. What I tend to do is after getting the first two skeletons (HB on one, IT the other, or IT both) I'll just keep a rotation of BB to keep them on me. Then when the next two skeles come out, I'll run off and gather them just like the first and BB to keep them on me until the next group.
If for some reason while trying to snag one, I get out of range or let the other slip past, I'll run back and toss a DnD over the healers (where the skeles are most likely running to). Overall, its a fairly easy situation to keep track of.
As for Skadi's gauntlet. I'll generally charge down 3/4 of the pathway, drop DnD on top of the pack and run a little past using BB to cement them on me. From here I make a judgement if I should snag the next group or just down the current group and use HB. They usually die by a second or third BB. Then I move forward running up to the next group and using a BB to snag initial aggro, saving HB for the next pack of runnings that should be coming your way by then, using it when they are on top of me.
After this group, you should be pulling the last 3 mobs in front of the harpoon guns in addition to the next set of runners and at this point DnD should be off cooldown again for if you need it in an emergency (or if you can time it with your shooters to drop it on the ground where Skadi will jump down on so that way he almost immediately makes for you instead of the rest of the group).
Overall... just takes practice and getting accustomed to it. I find that CoS was great practice as ideally you want to be moving at a quick pace and mobs are moving. The biggest test was the last gauntlet before Malganis and the Infinite Corruptor as you have a bunch of non-elites mixed in with the elites and have to get a good feel for how big a group to pull and when to stop and what abilities to use and which to save.
Post by
355293
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Nystali
Never drop Rime. Great boost to overall TPS and procs often enough.
Post by
186549
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Ruffachi
Get a mouse over macro for Obliterate, Frost Strike and Blood Strike. You can make the same macro for all of them.
Seriously, it makes things retardedly simple when it comes to any encounter; because it eliminates tab-switching from tanking and lets you basically drop a big hit on anything your TPS is slacking on whenever you want. HB still on CD for three seconds but you've got 45 RP and that mage is getting REAL close to the breaking point.
Mouse over. Obliterate. Problem solved.
This sounds very handy, is there anyone who could write an example of how the macro look like?
I myself am a DK-tank in the making, so this would be very helpfull :)
Post by
Eleazer
There is no need to ever single target someone as frost tank, unless your AoE dps is seriously out gearing you than you can occasionally do it. Nystali is spot on Rime is a life saver. Get it! Live it! Love it!
Mark one with a skull if you have noob dps single targeting the wrong guy. Typically if I get a focus fire on the wrong target. I allow them to pull it off me. Nothing like getting a mob smashing you in the face to teach you a lesson about single targeting the right guy. Occasionally I will get hollered at by a lock who decided to focus fire the wrong guy, but usually the raid leader or myself will mention that the purpose of marking is so you target the right person, and the issue is resolved. One or two deaths usually fixes wrong target people.
Now if you don't mark, and don't want to use rime well than you are on your own. Morbidity as a frost tank is essentially useless once you learn to tank effectively. Positioning so that all mobs must pass through you to get to your raid and so on.
Post by
186549
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aris
Nystali is spot on Rime is a life saver. Get it! Live it! Love it!
I had it, it just wasn't as helpful as it sounds on paper. It almost never proc's when you need it to. It doesn't proc often enough to keep frost fever refreshed. Chilblains on the other hand always works, and if you have HB glyphed you can slow all targets near the group instantly and it helps greatly to control the situation better. Gives you more time to respond to a range dps pulling aggro so you can taunt it back.
Also i rarely use OB as an OT (add tank), its definitely lower on my priority list than HB and D&D, so to get a buff to an ability i rarely use that will even more rarely proc an ability that may or may not be needed at the time. Its just too many "what ifs" and doesn't work well with the role i fill in my raids.
Rime gives you a slight TPS boost, but it wont be there when you need it most of the time. That's why i dropped it. I'd rather have a reliable talent than something that is only useful randomly and only rarely needed.
Now if you don't run with HB glyphed then id say sure, stick with rime. But if you have HB glyphed i think chilblains is a good alternative to help give you consistent reliable control of groups of mobs.
When 3.2 hits I'll likely put the 2 extra talent points i get back into rime but I'll keep 3/3 chilblains.
Now if you don't mark, and don't want to use rime well than you are on your own. Morbidity as a frost tank is essentially useless once you learn to tank effectively. Positioning so that all mobs must pass through you to get to your raid and so on.
We don't mark anything, i grab aggro on everything and people aoe it all down. That's how 99% of every pull we do works.
Also Morbidity is not useless. You cannot be watching every add at all times. Things are going to slip through, and having D&D that your raid members can just stand in when they get adds on them is incredibly helpful. (Think arena tanking on Thorim). D&D is more threat generation than any other ability we have except for RS which only works on 1 target. If threat gen is your primary concern, then D&D should be going down every time its available.
Post by
Eleazer
I run HB glyphed and OB is still a major source of damage. You have an 8 second cooldown on HB which allows for alot of OB's each OB gives you a chance to rime, if you aren't getting rimed something is wrong with your rotation. I get too many rimes. In AoE situations I can get 2-3 rimes in 1 single rotation. That's an awful lot of howling Blast. I don't know of a situation where Chillblains can be a necessity? Can you give an example? Mobs run away from you quickly? I am not sure the necessity of it. Are you losing aggro?
You are the first tank I have ran into taht didn't see Rime as not only a really nice dps output, but free TPS and had it proc on a regular basis, now if you wanted it to proc everytime you used Oblit than that is just asking too much. At that point the skill would be overpowered, as it is it's a great serviceable proc.
How close are your ranged dps that it takes you time to see that you lost aggro? If you have ranged pulling aggro than the problem is with the dps or with your threat production, and Rime and Oblit are guess what Threat producers. Amazing solution to an obvious problem with your build.
Dropping DnD every time it's up is crazy, there is no need to do that. Morbidity, as I have so continuously reminded is okay for unholy and blood builds who don't have great aoe snap threat, but frost does. HB is amazing in this ability and rime helps out a ton. Can you give me an example of your rotation? Because from what I can see you have a ton of dead zones where you are just meleeing while waiting for DnD or HB to come off Cooldown, that is some serious aggro loss which would lead to why you are having ranged pull off you.
If you are having trouble than marking solves that if you don't want to mark than don't complain about people pulling off you. I honestly don't know of a single tank that uses chillblains or even considers wasting 3 points in it for slowing purposes.
I am a little confused by your statements: you say get HB Glyphed and it will help your threat than saying Rime is only a slight increase. You do realize that Rime is Howling Blast and creates the same amount of threat just without the Rune use. So not sure how HB can be good threat and Rime not?
Finally, DnD is not a great
snap threat
, so tossing it out there so your dps can go run to it to get someone pulled off you is a little backwards.
Threat doesn't begin till the first tick, so your dps will continue to be hit till that tick takes effect
. It doesn't work like howling blast where it creates a huge amount of initial threat and then stops. It creates massive threat throughout it's lifetime, not initially. Which means that if you use dnd at the start of your pulls your threat builds over the time dramatically in accordance with your other attacks, but there must be other attacks in order for you to create the aggro, simply dropping dnd and white damaging has no effect. So tossing DnD on adds that have already aggro'd onto a dps will still get the dps killed unless the one tick is greater than the threat they passed you at.
I never said Morbidity is total fail. I used to but Nystali has convinced me that for newer tanks who have trouble knowing how to tank than it is good to have until you feel comfortable and knowledgeable about your tank class, or are specced into Blood or unholy tank. Watching every add is easy it's called scrolling back so you can view your tank from above this allows you to see all the adds. If you are too close that's called dps tanking and is really tough to tank as, and could explain your problems and need for chillblains if you are too close you can't watch them all, but if you scroll the camera back you can.
PS: I noticed you never use Obliterate and then complain that Rime rarely procs. Um, you do realize that the less obliterates you use the less Rime procs you will get. So in essence you were not doing what needed to be done to proc Rime, and then complaining it rarely procced. To this I have to ask um, why?
Post by
Aris
D&D is more for healers, chilblains through HB is for ranged dps. Healers stand in the D&D and if something runs up to them that I'm not already currently tanking (patrols, newly spawned adds etc) then they can just stand in the D&D and it gets things off them so they can continue to heal.
No, D&D is not snap aggro, but if you use it to pull with they will run the entire length of it to get to you, and by the time they get to you and you hit em with HB glyphed with chilblains it adds up. This is where chilblains really helps a lot. It slows the mobs so they spend more time in my D&D that i pulled them with before they get to me. DPS in my groups only wait long enough for mobs to get to me. Once they get to me, all hell breaks loose.
OB only hits a single target. I rarely am tanking only 1 thing at a time, though i do use it when HB, D&D, BB and FS are on cooldown as a filler.
I start pulls with D&D so they are running through it to get to me, then hit Deathchill if available, and hit em with HB. That grabs the snap aggro so my dps can start in. If its going to be a group that is going to live for some time, then i'll usually hit one with PS and then pestilence to spread it. After that i'm using BB, HB, and D&D.
Sometimes I'll be tanking a boss and i'll use OB more, but it doesn't happen often enough to warrant buffing it. For 90% of the content i tank, OB is last on my priority of abilities to use.
And yes i know if i never use OB rime wont proc very often, hence why I'm not spec'd into it and why i don't consider it a mandatory talent for all frost tanks. Its situationaly very good depending on the tanking role you fill.
Post by
186549
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aris
I was paraphrasing, not listing an accurate rotation. And yes i did mention that i use BB. BB stands for "blood boil", re-read my post and see if you cant spot the "BB".
Rotation:
D&D, DC/HB, BB, BT, PS then Pest when a rune becomes available.
Depending on how long i estimate the mobs to live will depend on what i do after D&D/HB. If they will die within a few seconds I'll probably just hit BB a few times and then its over. If i expect them to live for a while I'll use PS and then Pestilence before i spam BB so the BB's hit harder and the PS ticks can build up aggro on all the targets. If D&D, HB, and BB are all on cooldown I'll start tab targeting individual mobs. I use FS>OB>BS for single target.
I use Aoe abilities to Aoe tank over single target abilities, but when i have no aoe abilities to use because they are cooldown i am tab targeting through targets to use FS and OB. The fact still remains though that the majority of my time is spent using AoE abilities not single target abilities which is why i didn't spend 3 talent points buffing a single target ability. Why would i waist time Tab Targeting single target abilities when i have abilities that hit everything at the same time? That's just dumb.
Just because i fail to mention an aspect of my rotation doesn't mean i don't do it. We were discussing Rime the talent, not my rotation so i was focused on why i didn't take Rime.
Post by
Eleazer
lol, thank you for posting that rotation. It simply awakens everyone to how bad it is, and gives me no reason to argue with you anymore. DeathCoil lol, that's so funny and Pestilence even funnier. Thank you, now everyone will read that and go. Oh he doesn't know what he is talking about.
Post by
neomasterc
ive never had a problem with aoe aggro by DnD>HB>BB
if i do, i would pop blood tap and BB again, or deathchill on next HB.
Post by
Aris
lol, thank you for posting that rotation. It simply awakens everyone to how bad it is, and gives me no reason to argue with you anymore. DeathCoil lol, that's so funny and Pestilence even funnier. Thank you, now everyone will read that and go. Oh he doesn't know what he is talking about.
Well thankfully your judgement doesnt matter, only those in my raids. To date, none of them have any complaints. In fact out of all of the aoe tanks in my guild i am likely considered one of the best. My secondary raid group clears 8 bosses in 3 hours of 10man ulduar in one day, while our primary raid group clears all of 10man and 25man ulduar every week. So if a crappy rotation gets me notable fame in a ulduar clearing guild in the best progression guild on my server i guess I'll just have to live with that.
I'd love to see how you would improve my AoE threat gen, and my snap aggro with a better rotation. Here are your conditions for improvement. No targets are ever marked, and dps aoe down every pack, so you have to create a rotation that builds aggro equally amongst all targets at the same time. And anything you come up with has to have enough snap aggro so that dps doesnt have to wait more than a couple seconds to begin. Raid progression is paramount, the ability to clear trash as fast as possible is your focus. If you can do something better than I've come up with within those conditions id love to see it.
DeathCoil lol,
DC/HB stands for Deathchill/Howling Blast. It makes your HB crit. Its not deathcoil.
Post by
344858
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
344858
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
344858
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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