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Ret pvp question
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Post by
344618
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Guildmaster
Seal of Blood does more damage than Seal of Command. However, it also damages *you*, which is fine if you have a healer in PVE, not so fine when someone is killing you.
Seal of Command is a chance on hit. This means that every time you swing your weapon, it has a percentage chance (based on the speed of the weapon, the percent is normalized to make autoattacks cause the effect (known as a "proc") a certain number of times per minute) This makes it a lot more "bursty" which is sometimes good for pvp (but is sometimes annoying when you can't count on it, if you're unlucky).
Minimum hit rating I'd use for pvp is 5% (including any from racial or talents), but you should be aware that some people use more to get around talents that some classes have to reduce their chance to be hit.
Expertise is a matter of whether you can get it easily on your gear without sacrificing much else, and how much you dps from the front instead of from behind your target.
Post by
svirve
Seal of Blood does more damage than Seal of Command. However, it also damages *you*, which is fine if you have a healer in PVE, not so fine when someone is killing you.
No no no no no no no no no no noooooooooo......
You've got it all very wrong. Sure SoB does recoil damage to you. But it's damage is vastly superior to SoC.
So what do you think does the most damage to you, ~150 DTPS from SoB recoil or an extra 10k lava burst cause you couldnt kill the shaman fast enough? *HINT* the recoil will get outhealed by JoL and the lava burst will kill you
Base miss chance in pvp is 5% but as GM mentioned some talents will improve the chance to be missed.
Expertise is a total waste of a stat in PvP. If you're not stand behind your enemy you're doing it all very very wrong.
Post by
Guildmaster
Seal of Blood does more damage than Seal of Command. However, it also damages *you*, which is fine if you have a healer in PVE, not so fine when someone is killing you.
No no no no no no no no no no noooooooooo......
You've got it all very wrong. Sure SoB does recoil damage to you. But it's damage is vastly superior to SoC.
I wouldn't say "vastly". There are a few times when you want to use SOC over SOB. It really depends on the situation.
So what do you think does the most damage to you, ~150 DTPS from SoB recoil or an extra 10k lava burst cause you couldnt kill the shaman fast enough? *HINT* the recoil will get outhealed by JoL and the lava burst will kill you
Sounds like you're thinking Arena pvp, not world pvp or bg's where sometimes you're not the one being focused and you have no healer.
Additionally, SOC is more "bursty" which is helpful in certain matchups.
Expertise is a total waste of a stat in PvP. If you're not stand behind your enemy you're doing it all very very wrong.
Not everyone has the gear to kill their target(s) within a single HOJ (or again, are chaining through opponents in a BG situation). Sometimes, you actually are fighting people that you can't simply lock down and you have to face them. You have to adjust your gear to the situations you find yourself in.
Post by
svirve
It does vastly more damage. 200-300 DPS is what i would call vastly.
No i'm not thinking arena PvP but PvP in general. For that matter my example doesnt change wether you're thinking of BGs, world pvp or arena. ~150 DTPS is what SoB recoil will do to you this is easily outhealed by JoL and if you're using socomm your opposition is easily going to survive for another 2-3 abilities which will be enough to kill you. And the longer the fight goes on the more abilities they earn from you using SoComm instead of SoB.
SoB is even more superior in BGs were you are easily fighting a bunch of people and then each hit from DS will proc SoB adding even more damage.
SoC is more bursty BUT it's not a reliant burst and SoB will increase all your other burst abilities making it a way more reliable burst. And what makes an ability good in PvP is that you can trust on it doing something for you. Imagine interrupt mechanics if you had to hope that they would do anything at all each time you used them.
It's called positioning. If you're still using your keyboard to turn you're going to want alot of expertise. But if you realise that you can actually run through opponents you shouldn't have any troubles with dodges/parrys.For that matter half of the classes in the game (aka casters) wont be dodging/parrying anything when they do what they do best.
Post by
00bender00
I rarely find myself thinking "i'm doing too much damage"...
When you want to pressure a healer you need to do lots and costant damage, and SoC just doesnt enough for me.
I also prefer glyphing SoM, for some mana return to restart judging in case i'm OOM from an absorb streak and my DP is on CD.
Post by
Coaldog
They should fix SoC somehow, I mean why have a seal as a talent that is worse than a seal you get anyway. Ofc it's good for retadins 20-66, but in high end pvp and pve it becomes obsolete.
Post by
MischievousLoki
They should fix SoC somehow, I mean why have a seal as a talent that is worse than a seal you get anyway. Ofc it's good for retadins 20-66, but in high end pvp and pve it becomes obsolete.
64*
But I agree.
They should give it some kind of non-damage, PvP-useful functionality. Something good enough that you'll want to use it over the extra damage caused by blood most of the time. Like if they made Judgement of Command interrupt spell casting for 2 seconds. (even if it was only by glyph)
Post by
Magnerz
Not sure if svirve deserves a slap on the wrist or not for these two glaring errors!
1. Ret paladins using JoL in a pvp setting, sounds dubious to me, go JoJ!
2. If you're standing behind a target it can still dodge your attacks (PvE DPS don't just stack expertise for fun ;) )
This being said Svirve is still right, SoB will be better and the damage is easy taken care of by use of sacred sheild/AoE FoL procs, SoB > SoC in any situation regardless.
Post by
MischievousLoki
PLAYERS cannot dodge from behind. Only MOBS.
JoL is fine in PvP when you're fighting someone who can't get a speed increase. I usually have both on my bar and ready to use at all times.
I'm pretty sure even just Divine Storm can keep up enough healing to make up for SoB damage.
Post by
svirve
Not sure if svirve deserves a slap on the wrist or not for these two glaring errors!
1. Ret paladins using JoL in a pvp setting, sounds dubious to me, go JoJ!
2. If you're standing behind a target it can still dodge your attacks (PvE DPS don't just stack expertise for fun ;) )
This being said Svirve is still right, SoB will be better and the damage is easy taken care of by use of sacred sheild/AoE FoL procs, SoB > SoC in any situation regardless.
1. Depends on what you're fighting i'd have to say but i agree using JoL in pvp is kinda moronic.
2. Doesn't apply to players. Only mobs can still dodge attacks when attacking from behind.
I think there's a loading screen tip for this as well ;p
Post by
328154
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
262292
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
TL;DR - the following is a mathematical explanation of why SoB will still be better than SoC for PvP 'burst'.
In terms of burstyness, let's consider how often SoC will be more effective than SoB...
SoC, on a 3.4s weapon, will proc around 40% of swings. Swings include Crusader Strike and Divine Storm.
What you're hoping is that in a 6 second period, you can hit with:
0 Hammer of Justice
0 White swing 1, plus proc
1.5 Judgement (before they trinket out, for auto-crit)
3 Crusader Strike, plus proc
3.4 White swing 2, won't proc, because of internal CD of 1sec
4.5 Divine Storm, plus proc
6 Hammer of Wrath (hopefully)
6.8 White swing 3, if all else fails.
So we've got three opportunities to proc SoC, and one judgement. SoB will proc 4 times.
Let's assume that 3 SPH = 10 AP, because we've spec'd 3 points into Sheath of Light. This saves us dealing with AP *and* SPH.
Seal of Command does: 45% main weapon + 0.03105 AP
Seal of Blood/Martyr does: 48% main weapon
Judgement of Command does: (24% main weapon + 0.16 AP + 0.075 AP) * 1.5 (crit)
Judgement of Blood/Martyr does: 26% main weapon + 0.11 AP + 0.054 AP
I'm going to use my own undergeared ret stats to see, minus talents (armory), unbuffed. (Not sure which way this biases results.) With MW damage 1237-1515 and AP of 2578:
Weapon Damage:
SoC = 557-681 + 80 = 637-761 per proc
SoB = 594-727 per proc
Judgement Damage:
JoC = (297-364 + 412 + 193) * 1.5 = 1353-1453
JoB = 322-394 + 284 + 139 = 745-817
So over those 6 seconds, what you're hoping is that the extra damage that you get from the Judgement isn't offset by a missed proc.
0 procs: SoC + JoC = 1353-1453, prob 21.6%
1 procs: SoC + JoC = 1990-2214, prob 43.2%
2 procs: SoC + JoC = 2627-2975, prob 28.8%
3 procs: SoC + JoC = 3264-3736, prob 6.4%
4 procs: SoB + JoB = 3121-3725, prob 100%
So you've got a 6.4% chance of doing more damage with SoC than with SoC (and even then, the difference is pretty pathetic). The big difference is the internal cooldown on the SoC procs - you physically can't get enough proc chances to make a difference unless you do something really finicky with the swing timers.
Remember - this also assumes that you're going to be able to judge in time before they trinket out of stun/repentance.
The longer the 'burst' goes on, the more likely that SoB is the way to go, because you'd have to be extremely lucky to get 5 or more SoC opportunities to proc in a row (<3% chance for 5).
Edit: Just to be technically correct, you can swap Judgement and Crusader Strike to increase the available procs for SoC to 4 (if you know that they can't/won't trinket out of stun). This increases the chance of SoC being better to 17.92% (rather than 6.4%), at the risk of losing your judgement crit.
Post by
00bender00
JoJ is the only way we can catch up to opponents if your NOT judging it your wrong plain and simple
Not adapting is wrong, plain and simple.
Like, you're playing ret/rogue and bursting down a priest/pally, why in the hell would you judge justice? These 3/4k healing could be the difference in living long enough to finish what you and your friend are doing.
So JoJ unless you have completely no worries that your target may gain a speed increase, then go JoL.
Post by
MischievousLoki
PLAYERS cannot dodge from behind. Only MOBS.
obviously you never played a rogue old school... I had people dodging back-stab due to server lag.
JoL is fine in PvP when you're fighting someone who can't get a speed increase. I usually have both on my bar and ready to use at all times.
JoJ is the only way we can catch up to opponents if your NOT judging it your wrong plain and simple
I did, in fact, play a rogue pre-BC. Backstab no less. I've even had mobs parry ambush. But none of that is actually relevant to this discussion.
You're just being bull-headed about JoL/JoJ.
JoJ does absolutely nothing for you in some situations. Like if you're fighting a warrior, DK, warlock, etc. (unless you're in WSG or AB near a "Boot" buff).
Post by
carbon00ace
here's my ret pvp, i couldn't post a new topic so i had to put it here. Please comment/give feed back. What ever changes I need please state the why also. Thx a lot guys
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZVG0NMZVfrxrIu0dIbsu
Post by
MischievousLoki
here's my ret pvp, i couldn't post a new topic so i had to put it here. Please comment/give feed back. What ever changes I need please state the why also. Thx a lot guys
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZVG0NMZVfrxrIu0dIbsu
Drop two points in toughness and get divine purpose 2/2
Post by
carbon00ace
thx a lot. Was considering that when I was going thru.
Post by
328154
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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