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Moral dilema.
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Post by
zejuan
How do people feel about the new way to trade items within the raid?
The reason i ask is i won a dagger today in TOC25, ilvl 245, and the second after i got it the whispers started. The "bids" reached over 5k even without my respons. And for me 5k and above is a large amount of money and i must admitt i actually considered selling the item.
But here is my moral dilema, is it "fair" to sell it?
Post by
Herbhaven
It's not fair to sell it. If you sell it, you just caused the WoW crime of being a 'ninja.'
Yes, you won it fair and square. But if you weren't actually gonna use it, it's not fair for anyone else.
And yes, I know you intended to use it, but not everyone will get that impression and you'd probably make a few people angry.
Post by
Sagerauru
I would have to agree with Herb in that it would not be fair to sell it. If the other people rolled against you that were "bidding" on it and lost the roll, they lost it flat it out. That does not mean they should bombard you with whispers offering to pay you large sums of gold for the item they did not win the roll on.
As for your first question, I have generally enjoyed the item trade feature they added, seeing as it can allow people to easily transfer items between one another if both had the chance to win it and the winner feels someone else deserved it more for a variety of reasons that would not necessarily label them as a ninja (I.e., giving an item to someone else who rolled against you because it would be a bigger upgrade for them compared to you). It also rids us of those "Ooops!" moments of accidental loot distribution to the incorrect person, so it definitely can solve a few problems.
However, as in your case, the only problem with this is the potential of selling the items you win to the other people who rolled against you and lost in the event they want the item that bad. Seeing as no one in the raid has a direct way of knowing whether or not you sold the item aside from seeing the next day whether or not you have it equipped, it is probably done everyday now that it is easier to perform said process. Chances are, though, if someone realizes you are not using the item and someone else who lost on the item is using it the next day, they will automatically realize that you had traded the item off to someone else, which, as I said before, might be alright in certain cases. But, in your scenario, it would not have left a good image upon yourself had you taken the 5,000 Gold that was offered to you.
Besides, if I had won a dagger I could use on my character, I would have kept it- sure, you can buy Bound on Equip gear. However, you cannot buy yourself the better gear that drops from the higher-end raids. And just to be your luck, had you sold it, you may have never seen it drop again. ;)
Post by
pezz
I doubt this will be a problem for good, friendly raiding guilds, which is probably the demographic it was designed for. As far as pugs go, sure it's unpleasant but it's hardly game breaking. Just make sure the ML isn't a complete moron and inspects gear before giving something to a roll winner so you know the item isn't being rolled on purely to be sold.
Post by
126061
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Post by
219211
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Post by
Sagerauru
To those of you who are saying you would sell it, let me ask you, "Why?" Sure, I am not going to doubt that 5,000 Gold isn't a nice sum of money. However, if anyone in the raid would have grouped with you or the person you sold it to the next day, they would immediately flag you as someone very greedy and/or ninja and would most probably never group with you again. And once again, if the item was that nice of an upgrade that you would roll on it, why would even consider selling it to someone else, anyway?
I don't see a problem with that. You were there for boss kill, you participated in kill, you won the roll on an item - you are free to do with it anything you want to do. In my pugs I always have a rule "1 item per slot per run", which means that if you won the dagger and sold it - you won't get a 2nd one even if you win roll on it. But I really don't care what you do with that dagger, you can de it if you want to.
P.S. I would totally sell it.
Alright, let's put this into a scenario. Let's say that you are a Rogue (Just pulling a class out of the air), and you and another Rogue rolled on a really nice leather chest piece that drops off of the Twin Valkyr. The other Rogue wins it when it would have been a really nice upgrade for you and then he disenchants it. I am almost certain you would be pretty angry in that situation if that other person's only intent was to roll on gear that they really don't need for money.
Post by
263112
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Post by
cloudp
I see it as well as "ninjaing". That way, every single raider has the right to roll on every single piece that drops, to then auction it. Why is a dagger worth 5k gold dropping, and only 3 people in the raid are allowed to roll? Haven't I worked as hard for that hypothetical gold as any of them?
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239153
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66221
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142728
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Post by
NeoBlackheart
umm I find this hard to decide Now BOE auctioning is mega against me and I call ninja but and I do put that as a BIG but if you roll on it with every evidence of equiping it and some guy in your raid offered to buy it off of you for an insane amount of gold I would have a hard time saying its ninjaing. Why?
WHen you won that roll you had every intention of equiping it. Heck a few items I have equiped only to say hey you can have it. and gave it away. YOu did get it for yourself and not for any other reason BUT and here is where the but forms, Someone offered you Xgold and it is very tempting. You didn't take it to sell but if you need that x gold more than the upgrade I can't say I would call it a ninja.
Post by
Silversmith
Item X drops. A and B would benefit from X, want it and roll for it. A wins. B, being the capitalist pig he is, offers A huge sum of gold for the item. A sells it.
What happened in this situation? B got a couple points more on his roll. Not by blind luck, but hard cash. Don't see a problem here. In the end, one of the eligible people in your raid got the item, the raid as whole benefits. Remember, he is talking about item exchange within the raid, not AHing.
Post by
146010
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Post by
Porcell
imho, it would be foolish to sell the weapon. Is gold so difficult to come by, and your need for 5k gold so great, that you'd give up an ilvl 245 weapon just to save you a little effort on your dailies?
^This. In all honesty, if you are Pugging a raid, it means one of two things:
1) You are not in a raiding guild and don't often get the chance to get into raids.
2) You are a raider and just happened to miss your main raid this week.
If it's option 1, I would think that you'd thank your lucky stars you had the opportunity to roll on the item and to actually win it, since you don't often have access to that sort of gear.
If it's option 2, you should also be happy to improve your character's gear, especially if you didn't have to burn DKP on it.
In either situation, I don't think I'd sell the item for 5,000 gold. What the hell are you going to do with 5,000 gold anyway?
On the moral issue, it is a bit shady. As someone else mentioned, as soon as you are selling gear for gold it is like you are stealing from the rest of the group.
Someone earlier mentioned the Grand Mammoth dropping in VoA. IMHO it's a bit of a different situation. Since (presumably) everyone in the group got to roll on the item, everyone had an equal chance at it. The winner beat out everyone else in the group. If that winner wanted to then sell the item to someone else in the raid, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that. Almost be like a BoE dropping, everyone rolling on it, and then someone immediately asking the winner "Hey, mind if I buy that off you?"
However, in an RTU raid situation, there's only 3 or 4 of 25 people rolling on it. If the winner then sells to someone else, they are stealing money from the 21 other people who never had a chance to win the item. Why should the winner reap all of the gold from the sale?
But like I said at the start of the post, it would be silly (from my perspective) to even think about selling the item.
Post by
ArgentSun
I see it as well as "ninjaing". That way, every single raider has the right to roll on every single piece that drops, to then auction it. Why is a dagger worth 5k gold dropping, and only 3 people in the raid are allowed to roll? Haven't I worked as hard for that hypothetical gold as any of them?
Or think of it the other way around - between those three people, I won. I really want to use it, however this buddy next to me is still using his Naxx10 dagger, as opposed to my Ulduar10 one. Obviously it's a huge upgrade for both of us, but it's bigger for him. I don't quite want to give up my prize, but I guess if I could be compensated somehow...
Post by
cloudp
Or think of it the other way around - between those three people, I won. I really want to use it, however this buddy next to me is still using his Naxx10 dagger, as opposed to my Ulduar10 one. Obviously it's a huge upgrade for both of us, but it's bigger for him. I don't quite want to give up my prize, but I guess if I could be compensated somehow...
Could happen, but if it were me i would definately either pass the item completely, or ask a symbolical value for it, most likely not even gold. If i've seen who I was rolling against, and the upgrade was way bigger for him, i wouldn't roll, or pass to the 2nd higher bidder if i won.
That way, pugs would be turn into gigantic AHs.
Post by
Paolo
There is no such thing as a moral dilemma in WoW. The idea of it alone is ridiculous.
If you won it and people STILL offered you 5,000g for it, who's at fault?
Moral strength comes from making hard decisions. The seller had the harder decision by far. Obviously. Of course, the buyer is not off the hook either...it's like waving an apple in front of a weak Adam.
And LOL to the idea that there are no moral dilemmas in WoW. The very idea that there
aren't
is ridiculous. Integrity is just so hard to find that it shocks and surprises you when you see it in game. But pretending integrity
doesn't
exist, or worse yet that it doesn't
matter
, is the seed that will allow you do justify any sort of disgusting or self-serving behavior. And if you're like that in WoW, there's a 100% chance that you're like that in life too. Get over it.
Post by
pezz
In either situation, I don't think I'd sell the item for 5,000 gold. What the hell are you going to do with 5,000 gold anyway?
Buy two slightly worse daggers from other raids?
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