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10.2.7
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Beta
From Combat to Assassination
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Post by
Aazed
Long time fellow Combat rogue, I've been preparing the switch over Assassination for 3.3. I've been updating the beta spreadsheets as they've come (Aldriana's) and made all the required changes (mostly regemming).
Though I've an SArP-targetted gear, the new 51/18/2 pulls ahead by 2,000 DPS.
Some few things are quite obscure though, and I've yet to find a complete answer about them:
What exactly is the relation between hit, crit and expertise? I've read a few things about this by Aldriana, and I fail to understand. Aldriana also said that Expertise astonishingly became the most valuable stat as Mutilate (and my spreadsheet shows me so when I allow it to recommend me to gem for Expertise).
tl;dr could someone explain all that?
About the cycle: my spreadsheet shows me that 4+ Envenom pulls ahead 3+ Envenom. Does it mean that until I have at least 4+ CP, I'll have to use Mutilate? I suppose so, but it happened a few times last night that I had exactly 3 CP and I thought that wasting another 55 energy in a Mutilate to have 5 CP in the end could be a potential loss of DPS.
tl;dr in a 4+ Envenom cycle, does it hurt to Envenom at only 3 CP when Mutilate does not crit, or do I really need to have 4+ CP?
I'm used to be the best DPS of my guild (we mostly run only ToC 25, HToC 10, Ulduar 25, Ulduar 10 HM). I know that my Combat build at a lot to do with this (thanks to AR, BF and HnS), and I'm afraid to deceive my guild after this patch because of the loss of these tools…
tl;dr do you have some tips on these particular fights (HToC 10 and Ulduar 10 HM) where I have to pull the most out of me?
I realize I'm asking for quite a lot, though I do not wait for each you to answer every particular point: all answers (even “l2p noob”) will help me up to a certain degree.
Post by
KidB
1. It's all because of the crit cap. In ICC in particular there will apparently be a shortage of hit rating (possibly expertise too). This can cause a portion of your crit% to go to waste since there isn't enough room on the roll table for some crits to go through. Bottom line - having more hit and expertise allows for more of your crit percentage to be used.
2. A 4+ envenom cycle is a 4+ envenom cycle. You don't perform envenom unless you have 4 combo points. A 3 combo point envenom has too low damage per energy compared to a 4 pointer to be worth it.
3. You aren't "deceiving" your guildies with sub-par dps. You're gimping the raid. And you're doing that by speccing any way other than combat in ToC.
Sorry in advance for #1, hastily written. I'm sure someone else will explain it in greater detail.
Post by
Aazed
1. It's all because of the crit cap. In ICC in particular there will apparently be a shortage of hit rating (possibly expertise too). This can cause a portion of your crit% to go to waste since there isn't enough room on the roll table for some crits to go through. Bottom line - having more hit and expertise allows for more of your crit percentage to be used.
Well, that's what I read at EJ and here. But I don't understand either :p
What it means is that when on the target, our attacks are either hits, glancing hits, misses, dodges, parries or crits; given the lack of +hit and +expertise on ICC gear, misses, parries and dodges will be too frequent for crits to be present at their theoric percentage? Well, now I understand :)
2. A 4+ envenom cycle is a 4+ envenom cycle. You don't perform envenom unless you have 4 combo points. A 3 combo point envenom has too low damage per energy compared to a 4 pointer to be worth it.
Heard you loud and clear :]
3. You aren't "deceiving" your guildies with sub-par dps. You're gimping the raid. And you're doing that by speccing any way other than combat in ToC.
I have yet to theorycraft a decent 20/51/0 with my current gear and see how much of an improvement it is, but given that I'm in a progression guild (and your current knowledge of the ICC bosses)
would you think it'd be better for me if I stayed Combat?
Since my raid is highly dependant on me for sustained high DPS (not much burst since we have a pretty good group on that particular point), I thought Mutilate would have brought me where my raid wanted me. On the other hand, as I've been Combat for years, Mutilate is pretty new to me and it may come to an issue if I failed on the cycle from time to time and then gimped by DPS in an hurtful way for the raid…
Sorry in advance for #1, hastily written. I'm sure someone else will explain it in greater detail.
Easily excused :) Thanks KidB for your answers!
Post by
Coldkil
Sorry in advance for #1, hastily written. I'm sure someone else will explain it in greater detail.
that's where i come.
first of all: we are talking about white hits (auto attack) and NOT specials (mutilate or envenoms). specials cannot miss or dodge when reached the cap, so don't worry about them.
then, explaining in a simple but exhaustive way: when you attack, there are 2 main possibilities, your attack lands or not hit. when you hit, the attack could be a simple hit or a crit, depending on your crit%. remeber also that it can be a glancing strike (which is 24% if i remeber well) and bosses have a 4.8% crit reduction, which affects your crit cap.
so, since the quantity of your crits depends directly from your chance you hit the target (if you don't hit you don't crit), raising expertise and hit will raise your chance to crit.
with ICC gear, reaching high % of crit is easy, especially raid buffed, but it lacks hit rating so this traduces into wasted crit%, since you're not hitting the boss enough. making an extreme example, of your chance to hit is 0, even having 99% crit chance you won't never crit.
i hope what i wrote is understandable, and as a bonus, i give you a
useful link
Post by
Aazed
@Coldkill: That is what I understood after reading KidB's post, but much more clearly explained. Thanks a lot you two!
Post by
KidB
To understand the crit cap, you have to understand the attack roll, how attacks work in wow. If you have ever played D&D, you'll know what I'm talking about.
Every time you swing your weapon at the enemy, the server generates a random number between 1 and 100. It's like rolling a 100 sided dice. What number the server generated (which number came up after the roll) determines if the resulting attack hits, crits, misses, etc. Possible results of an attack roll for a player are:
Miss
Dodge
Parry
Glancing blow
Block
Crit
Regular hit
When attacking from behind you remove parries and blocks from the list. Your attack roll will look something like this with 0 hit and expertise rating, attacking from behind:
Miss
-
27%
of this happening with zero hit rating
on gear or hit% talents,
while dual-wielding
.
Dodge
-
6.5%
when attacking a mob/raid boss
Glancing blow
-
24%
This value is static and can't be reduced in
any way.
Crit
-
25%
This is a value I just came up with for the
sake of argument.
Regular hit
-
17.5%
This is the leftover value from the above
percentages. If your attack didn't miss, got
dodged/parried, glanced, etc., it will hit.
Now, imagine you suddenly equipping some items that will result in you having 5% more crit. That 5% extra crit can't be taken from any other value in the attack table except hit. This means that you can, if you push your crit% high enough, reach a point where you won't perform regular hits anymore. At that point you have essentially pushed white hits off the attack table. You are crit-capped and any additional crit rating you equip is wasted itemization points, since those crits won't happen.
More hit and expertise rating on your gear reduces miss and dodge percentages and results in more attacks hitting, which allows for more crits to happen.
edit: curses, beaten by coldkil
Post by
Aazed
This one piece deserves to be stickied :) Wonderfully explained.
Currently launching Excel to do some spreadsheeting on 3.3 Combat. Will see if it's worth respeccing.
Do you have any insight on ICC bosses, and if so, do you know if Combat's better utility surpasses Assassination's higher DPS?
I know that you won't choose for me at the end, but your advice is highly valuable to me.
Post by
PessimiStick
You can't put 8 points in the 4th tier without 15 in the previous, and 23/48 = Fail.
As for Combat vs. Mut, just play whichever you want. Hardmodes won't be out for months, and by then we'll know which spec performs better in the real encounters. I'm switching to Mut for tomorrow because it sims higher, and I may as well play around with it now when the content is going to be a joke.
Post by
Aazed
Thanks everyone, I've found a pretty solid build/gear combination.
Post by
Zanny
Whoever is talking about 3 point vs 4 point envenom needs to realize the point of envenom is rapidly becoming massive poison application buff following more than the damage it deals by itself. Thats why ruptureless is becoming better at all tiers next patch. 3+ cycles are fine as 51 / 18 / 2 because you could waste cps going to 5 points for an envenom that you are already spending the same amount of energy for no matter what (or in the case of 2/5 relentless, youre doing an envenom with a significantly lower chance of giving an energy refund anyway).
Post by
Coldkil
4+ vs 3+ = no significant difference in dps. i prefer 4+.
Post by
KidB
3+ cycles are fine as 51 / 18 / 2 because you could waste cps going to 5 points for an envenom that you are already spending the same amount of energy for no matter what (or in the case of 2/5 relentless, youre doing an envenom with a significantly lower chance of giving an energy refund anyway).
You were ALWAYS at the risk of wasting a combo point in certain situations when going for 4+ combo points. Nothing has changed about that. 3 point envenoms didn't have enough DPE versus 4+ ones to be worth it. Do you have any proof of this situation changing or should we continue to hold your word for it?
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