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Ele DPS
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Post by
Mesoforte
I've run this a few times, and this is what I got-
No Chain Lightning
Chain Lightning
I can't maintain the chain lightning rotation for long without replenishment, however it comes out lower every time.
Care to post any runs at the two rotations on yours?
Edit* I've been thinking about it, and I think maybe Lightning overload is the breaker between adding chain lightning into a rotation. If it procs off a single target chain lighting, the damage will be lower. If it procs of a lighting bolt, the damage would be higher. Its the only real difference I can think of.
Post by
lucius
Small sample set + not having flametounge weapon imbue ;p. Flametounge was due to run out at 3:06. Second screen shot is from 9 mins after it ran out. I can't tell when/if you use elemental mastery.
However, Overload can be thought of as a flat multiplier to both sides of the equation. So it affects them equally and we don't care what the multiplier is exactly.
Even still, lightning bolt v chain lightning isn't the issue. There's nothing about casting CL that would make you lose 300 dps from your LB. From your Photo 2:
LB = 107286 / 34 / 2 = 1578 dps
CL = 56516 / 16 / 1.5 = 2355 dps
Photo 1:
LB = 272846 / 73 / 2 = 1869 dps
As you said, MANA is the issue. Chain will always hit harder. Blizzard knows this, and tried to change the mechanics of the spell, but weren't able to come up with a satisfactory fix.
Post by
Mesoforte
Small sample set + not having flametounge weapon imbue ;p. Flametounge was due to run out at 3:06. Second screen shot is from 9 mins after it ran out. I can't tell when/if you use elemental mastery.
However, Overload can be thought of as a flat multiplier to both sides of the equation. So it affects them equally and we don't care what the multiplier is exactly.
Even still, lightning bolt v chain lightning isn't the issue. There's nothing about casting CL that would make you lose 300 dps from your LB. From your Photo 2:
LB = 107286 / 34 / 2 = 1578 dps
CL = 56516 / 16 / 1.5 = 2355 dps
Photo 1:
LB = 272846 / 73 / 2 = 1869 dps
As you said, MANA is the issue. Chain will always hit harder. Blizzard knows this, and tried to change the mechanics of the spell, but weren't able to come up with a satisfactory fix.
Actually, the screenshot was taken late because I had to go do something for a bit. One's taken at 2:52, the other at 3:15. Flametongue should have been up in the actual test. I did it a few times on each and took the two that were most representative of the average. :\
And, lightning bolt has a 1.75 second cast time. Chain lightning has a 1.31 second cast time if I remember right. I can do it again and again, but the rotation without chain lightning has been running higher. That's why I wanted you to test it out on yours. :P
And I didn't pop any cooldowns.
During the first two, the dps poped up to 3100 on the non-cl rotation before it dropped while I waited to lose combat. The CL rotation hit 2900. After that initial run, the dps dropped off to 2300 and 2500. The third test showed around 2700 and 2400. It might be that the extra chain lightning in the rotation messed with the LvB from the rotation, but it consistently showed lower.
Post by
79514
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
lucius
I'm begining to believe people say to just use LB instead of CL because
americans
people are so math illiterate that it takes way too much effort to explain to them.
Quick Edit: The above is meant to be tongue in cheek but sounds much *!@#$%ier as I reread it ;p. Sorry!
As far as your recounts being representative and you being sure you had flametongue weapon up. How do you explain the loss of 330 dps on your lightning bolt between the two. 15% difference isn't tiny and it pretty much covers the difference between the two overall damage figures. You don't look to have enough mana (only 3500) in the second photo to have sat around for 9 mins after testing with flametongue.
Plus, I showed you how your chain lightning did more dps than your lightning bolt. If you're having trouble using a 4th spell in your rotation, that's fine. But don't blame chain lightning for lower dps when it's a user issue.
It doesn't matter which scales better, it matters which does more damage. Y = 10 X + 7 scales stronger than Y = X + 7000, but that doesn't mean you say the first equation is better when X == 200.
Also, to the person that said that haste gives as much benifit to CL as it does to LB? I think that argument is flawed, a longer cast spell will always benifit more from haste
There is no flaw, that's how haste works. You get a percentage increase in cast time for a fixed haste value. The same haste value makes both LB and CL cast 30% faster (which leads to 30% increase in dps). The important part is their ratio stays the same.
2 / 1.5 = 1.33 (LB / CL base cast times)
1.75 / 1.31 = 1.33! (Mesoforte's hasted cast times)
So if you know LB does X dps, and CL does Y dps, with Y > X. You can also be sure that hasted LB at 1.33 X dps is less than CL's hasted 1.33 Y dps.
Everything I've been saying will not apply to Maelstrom Weapon casts or Elemental Mastery casts because those
DO
fundamentally change things. This may be where some of the confusion arises.
Post by
Mesoforte
So you know what I did immediately before I took the screenshot then? Hmm? There's no sense in over analyzing something that is based on a false supposition. (Akin to you immediately assuming I'm American. Or maybe assuming that there aren't gaps created by the use of chain lightning that could possibly explain a lower dps amount.)
Is it really that hard for you to go hit up a target dummy and give it a physical test, screenshot it and then drop it here?
And the fact of the matter is, I haven't been arguing with you. -_- I just ran some tests and posted the results while asking if you could confirm them in your tests. You don't need to get snippy about it.
Post by
Mesoforte
Chain Lightning
Lightning Bolt
And thinking about the difference, I think I can tell you why the lightning bolt rotation is consistently going higher than the chain lightning rotation-
Elemental dps is dependent upon the amount of spells you can squeeze in between Lava Bursts. Chain Lightning does slightly less actual damage than lightning bolt with ~.43 seconds difference in their cast time.
2000*4>1900+2000*3
or
2000*4>1900*2+2000*2
Instead of normalizing the damage per cast, normalizing it to the cooldown of Lava Burst would probably be more beneficial.
You can fit 2 chain lightnings in between 1 lava burst with 2 lightning bolts to stagger the Chain lightning cooldown. However, you can also fit 4 lightning bolts in between 1 lava burst. The Chain Lightning cooldown actually hinders you because either you have to cast an extra lightning bolt to stagger it, or you have to wait ~.5 seconds to use the next chain lightning. If you stagger it with a second lightning bolt, you lose out on dps from the next lava burst because it will finish a second after the cooldown is up on that.
And before I forget, yes I did try only throwing 1 CL between lava bursts instead of 2. It still resulted in a loss.
A straight LB spam (to vet out flameshock and lava burst differences) shows more dps in recount than a CL, LB, LB, CL spam. There is roughly a 200 damage difference between CL and LB on average. The crit difference is a little less than 1000 damage, favoring LB.
Post by
427366
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Mesoforte
I'm pretty new to shammies... but the way I understand the mechanics of LB vs. CL is not:
With optimum haste you get 5 LB casts between LvB, with less than optimum you can squeeze in LB x 4 + CL x 1, or LB x 3 + CL x 1... and so on, depending on your haste.
1.75+1.75+1.75+1.75=7 sec.
CL has a cast time of 1.34 on my current haste (and I'm nowhere close to optimal)
So no, you can't fit in an extra chain lightning without suspending the lava burst cooldown by 1.34 seconds. Its more important to cast lava burst
(As the cooldown will probably be up due to latency)
than to hit CL. Not only that, but the lower than 2 sec cast time on lava burst frees up the global cooldown for usage of flameshock. You only need to recharge it every 2 lava bursts, so you have 2 free seconds after 8 casts of lightning bolt to recharge it.
And before I forget, yes I did try only throwing 1 CL between lava bursts instead of 2. It still resulted in a loss.
Post by
Alitruae
I'd hafta agree here with Mesoforte, Chain Lightning is not very good for single target dps, and if your a shaman, its all you can ever hope to be unless, blizzard gives us some sorta click n cast aoe, like mages blizzard or flamestrike. What it comes down to is this, and I tried it on 2 different bosses in heroic uld. Fs>Lvb>Lbx4 or 5>lvb>fs puts out more dps then throwing in chain lightning specifically if you are dpsing a boss who has no sustained adds, such as Xt-002 Deconstructor or Iron Council. Now facing bosses with sustained adds such as kologarn, since CL does jump from right arm, to body to left arm, increases dps, since your hitting more then one target per CL throw. But counting in the glyphs of lightning and the totem of hex, i do believe Lb spam between lava bursts and flame shock renews still comes out on top.
I went from dealing 3600-3700 dps to hitting 4k on Xt and Iron Council 3600-3700 throwing in CL, 4k dps, was using straight Lb and lvb spam.
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