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DW Frost idea
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Post by
313023
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aris
You might gain a bit of aoe dps or burst dps, but you'll definitely lose single target long haul dps like in boss fights where it matters.
DK's are not an aoe dps class. I say stick to what your good at and do what you can to optimize for the best single target dps you can.
Glyph of HB really is best for frost tanks to get snap aggro on groups of mobs. Like in an OT role or for trash between bosses.
Post by
Eleazer
You are basically using the old single disease rotation with two weaposn instead of one. Essentially gimping your most used attack which is Obliterate. I am not sure how you are gaining an obliterate as HB and IT/PS use the same runes and you would be using HB more meaning you end up costing yourself an Oblit every 8 seconds that seems to be a huge dps loss at least to me.
Post by
341986
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Eleazer
If my guess is correct, the extra OB comes from using Rime's free HB to apply FF so you won't have to use the runes for ITPS
which is something I'm running around with(since I felt that any glyph aside from FS/OB will have minor impact and can for the most part be swapped for personal flavor)
basicly if I get Rime proc, I'd either save it until KM proc or until the diseases are about to fall off and use it
which mean on the 'rotation' that I had Rime, it'd be
HB OB OB BS BS RP
OB OB OB RP
and other wise
IT PS OB BS BS RP
OB OB OB RP
rough calculation, if I'm wrong someone can correct me(I'm leaving out things like Tundra Stalker, since that extra damage would apply to both rotation)
OB1d = 112.5% dmg
OB2d = 125% dmg
I'm too lazy to calculate the actual number, so I'll assume BS1d = 50%, BS2d = 55%
HB rotation would do
5*112.5% + 2*50% + HB
vs
4*125 + 2*55 + IT + PS(50%)
rotation A do 662.5%
rotation B do 660%
so it becomes IT vs HB, but I didn't include Blood Plague in there yet, and there's probably a few other things I'm missing
in the end I'd say it's small enough difference that it'll be fine, but that's ONLY if you use Rime to apply FF, and not use the rune(if you do, you immediately fall behind by something of 20% or so per rotation)
p.s. I especially love HB glyph for fights with multiple targets, like Kologarn or Mimiron p4, since this way I can keep FF on all targets and thus always have the 15% damage bonus from Tundra Stalker without having to use a rune for Pestilence
I see several problems with this rotation.
1. You stated HB/OB/OB/BS/BS - where did you get the extra runes? I count 8 runes used in one cycle, that seems to be more than I have. Technically your rotation would be HB/OB/BS/BS/FS rp dump, while the standard one is IT/PS/OB/BS/BS/FS RP dump. while you gain an extra GCD I gain extra damage on my Obliterates and Blood Strikes as well as a stronger tick damage.
2. You lose Blood Disease for a whole cycle, that gives you a weaker Oblit/Blood Strike, and disease for the benefit of one HB - doesn't seem like it would work out to my advantage.
3. Finally, saving HB for Rime/KM procs guarantees me and HB crit, and though it doesn't reapply the disease, if I am in a large multi mob pull I can use Pest to spread diseases than follow up with an HB every 8 seconds with a added Blood Boil damage, plus I get the added damage for dual diseasing the entire mob. Once again, with the 20 percent increase in disease damage, I am not sure How you could beat me in dps, except your snap dps would be higher, and mine would be higher at the end.
Post by
Bllets
I'm pretty sure I've read that is has been proved at EJ, that single target disease just isn't viable due to the increased damage from diseases, where you'll be missing one, and the damage loss from OB/BS.
Post by
341986
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Eleazer
LazyD
If you are going to only use HB/Rime to do your FF than I can forsee several issues.
1. You will be clipping diseases. - while HB/IT apply diseases thereby proccing our IIT buff. If you use it every 8 seconds, or even more considering how Rime procs sometimes, you actually lose disease damage due to clipping. It's follows the same principle as Rogues reapplying Rupture before it gets to it's last tick. The sooner you reapply something, the less damage it does. Glyph of Disease doesn't have this effect it allows the disease to tick off before the new count starts.
2. How are you gaining an OB by using HB to apply FF - you are still going to have to use PS to reapply Blood Plague thereby eliminating the extra OB gained. Because your rotation would now look like this - IT/PS/OB/BS/BS/FS dump - OB/OB/OB/RP dump - During this rotation you will have used HB once or twice to reapply the disease meaning a small loss of dps due to disease clipping however now BP is about to wear off meaning that now you need to reapply it. So where does the extra OB fit? I am seeing PS/OB/OB - and now you have one rune left for BS? so you have actually lost dps and not gained it.
3. Your cycle is the same as mine only difference is you lose out on the extra RP generated by IT glyph. The only way to gain an extra OB is to use Glyph of Disease which was previously mentioned.
Now to reiterate here, Using HB to reapply FF would clip disease costing you some dps, and if you didn't use PS to reapply Blood plague, not only would you lose the bonus disease damage, but you would also lose the bonus damage to obliterate and blood strike which they gain per disease application.
I am not seeing anyway you can compete with dual disease IT Glyph of Glyph of Disease yet?
Post by
149828
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Post by
341986
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Post by
Eleazer
@katalyst - You are costing yourself runic power by not glyphing FS over the length of a Boss Fight that is a large loss of dps due to FS consuming more Runic power. Again that's a dps loss that gains what benefit a clipped disease rotation that gives you what benefit. What do you gain that I lose? I still use HB every time you do? I just use IT to reapply my diseases. You save yourself one IT which you use on what? You don't gain two runes per cycle you gain one, you save yourself an IT, but you still have to use PS to reapply Blood Plague. Now if you are using Glyph of Disease, I dont' see how you are saving yourself anything at all as Pest refreshes both diseases, and not just one.
@lazyd - Single disease rotations are vastly inferior to Dual Disease rotations. Let me give you an example as to how far behind they are. I have a dk in my guild who was a single disease HB dps user. He joined our uld 25 raid. His gear score was just below mine. His dps on Ignis was 4.3k - which isn't real bad. Mine was 5.8k and I got stuck in the slag pot and he didn't. Now he used almost 2x as many frost strikes as I did, and use a lot more HB's, but my BcB/OB/BS and Blood Plague wiped his dps out. It's not just a small amount. You are losing 500 damage per tick of Blood Plague as well as The an additional 12-15 percent damage per Oblit and BS. You aren't using HB more than I do, as every Rime/Km proc I am pumping out a non-glyphed HB. As for your HB benefits you aren't using it anymore than me, and are gaining nothing but a small loss of dps from the clipped disease. Yes I gain only one tick per rotation, but one tick is around 500-700 damage multiply that by the amount of cycles and again glyph of disease becomes far superior to glyph of HB.
Now granted you may be gaining an OB but you are gaining a vastly inferior OB per cycle. So if you think that one single disease OB is worth more in dps over time than BP along with the increased damage to OB/BS/BcB and an IT usage than by all means do it. I just can't conceivably see it happening either mathematically or realistically. Use the math, look at the numbers and find a way to show me something where you actually can stay close in dps.
Glyph of HB gives no advantage as the only way to use it without seriously gimping your dps is to save HB for Rime Procs. So you are gaining no dps over those who are not glyphing HB, but in fact suffering a nasty loss of dps, because you are replacing Glyph of Disease (500 damage lost per cycle) and Glyph of IT (runic power).
Post by
345177
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Post by
239567
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Post by
341986
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344867
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Post by
Eleazer
@Luzaf - glyphing HB to keep up IIT doesn't make sense as you are refreshing it every 8 seconds. IIT has a 20 second duration which coincidentally is just a bit longer than disease durations. So from what I can see, we both use HB every time rime/km procs. The only difference is yours is glyphed and reapplies FF and mine doesn't. No when the 20 seconds are up both of us still have to reapply Blood Plague. Let me show you the difference, and perhaps you can help me with where your rotation is better. Both of us have exactly 6 runes to spend
HB Glyphed disease rotation 2nd cycle - PS (reapply Blood Plague) OB (Frost/Blood)/OB - Now you are at 5 runes, leaving you with 1 rune for ? Because as you said you will only use HB on Rime so you are sitting with 1 free rune to use. 1 rune does not equal Obliterate. So you can use your rune on BS if it's death or blood or IT if it's frost.
My rotation - IT/PS/OB/OB - From what I can see we both used 6 runes I used my 6th on IT. You used yours on BS - IT hits harder than BS with full Razorice buff. I count 6 runes both ways. We both used HB on rime so you don't gain damage there.
So please give me an example where you gain any sort of advantage over not using IT to reapply your FF after 19 seconds. The advantage that I gain is the extra RP for a longer RP dump. You gain what exactly?
@lazyd - Explain to me how your dps can stay close to Dual disease rotation. I gave you a list of reasons as to how it doesn't. I am not going to break it down to basic numeral math for you. If you refuse to see something that is obvious breaking it down to basic numbers won't help you. Do the math yourself and you will see the large loss of dps, and the loss of dps increases as the length of the fight does. In heroics it probably won't matter, but in boss fights it's a huge difference.
Finally, Glyph of Disease does not drop off IIT/IT spec it simply allows you to ignore it if you have a raiding enhance shaman. Many dk's glyph disease for when they 25 man raid and are raiding with an enhance shaman, but still use the 53/18 rotation when they are in 10 man or in heroics. Technically, it amounts to a small dps loss, but an easier rotation. The dps loss is marginal, as the simplified rotation allows many to keep the constant rotation going smoothly. However it is still a dps loss.
Post by
149828
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Post by
341986
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Post by
Eleazer
@katalyst
Okay, I mistyped and went back and made the correction. I meant to type PS reapply BP. I see what you are doing now. You are using the GoD rotation with a glyphed HB. The issue I can forsee is not as simple as you portray it. Btw, you are overusing pest. You should use it every 2nd cycle not every rotation. You want to use it every 18-19 seconds.
2xIT + 2xPS >3BS - which I believe it would be, the difference is all in the amount of RP lost. Not only are you losing IT glyph, but you also lose glyph of FS. Also You dont' IT/PS as often as you suggested. Technically I gain two more OBlits before reapplying.
So in essence you are losing out on 18 RP every time your rotation rolls through. I need to do some research, but I am not sure Pest gives RP but I am sure someone else knows the answer there.
So lets figure out what your rotation costs you as opposed to benefits.
Benefits - Less work, easier to keep up rotation, save in GCD
Disadvantages - loss of rp, loss of dps (due to disease clipping of FS and Pest as often as you do)
You lose 8 rp saved per FS. FS costs 40 RP for you 8 for me that means every 5 FS I gain a free one that you lose. Pest is a loss of dps, You lose a BS here, while I gain the BS. Finally though you gain a GCD you lose 10 RP every cycle that I gain from IT. So in essence I gain 18 RP over you giving me not just one FS every 5 used over you, but 3 FS from you costs you 40 RP with no runic power generated by IT. Every 20 seconds I gain 10 RP that you don't that means in a 80 second Fight I gain an additional FS that you don't. So lets knock out the basics.
In a 5 minute boss fight, I would gain 150 RP From IT alone, now my FS is going to cost me 32 RP instead of your 40 RP. So I save 8 RP per FS, since generally by the time we get to through the first Rotation I have used 6 FS that means that already I have enough RP for an additional FS. So in a 5 minute 5 I will gain 1 FS per cycle just on saving RP per FS. Let's use some basic rounded numbers
5 minute fight
120 RP from Glyph IT
48 RP per Rotation - 2 rotations per minute approx - 86 RP per minute From FS Glyph
206 RP per cycle now saved total
FS costs 32 RP per swing = 6.437 additional FS per rotation
Your pest consumes 1 BS spot per second rotation if used right which means you lose an Oblit.
10 rotations - 5 Oblits lost over 5 minute fight
Use of Rune tap to gain Oblit = loss of use of Rune tap to gain UBA 25 percent strenght lost.
So you traded 25 percent strength every 2 minutes to gain an Oblit.
since you asked for more info there it is.
My rotation gains
6xIT + 6xPS + UBA + 6 FS > 5xBS and 5 RP starved GCD
Now perhaps I am looking at this wrong, but in a 5 minute fight I would say, Trading 18 dps rotations to gain 5 BS and a GCD that I can't use because of runic starvation. So if you can find a way to do more dps than mine. Than by all means show me the numbers that prove it.
Post by
Eleazer
@LazyD
I used to glyph Disease and provide the IIT buff in 10 mans, but not in 25 mans because in 25 mans we have a raiding enhance shaman. However I found the constant switching rotations to be annoying, and just went glyph of IT with much more positive results. Did I use different rotations between different instance absolutely. In heroics, I provided IIT so I didn't use Pest. I provided the buff. In 10 mans I rarely raided with the enhance shaman so once again I provide the IIT buff and didn't use Pest. Now in 25 mans I am not responsible for buff so I used Pest.
As you can see, its' quite easy to be glyphed for Diseases and use separate rotations for different raids. Sometimes you are required to play a different role, Heck in ToC my job is to kite a stupid rogue and Pali, so I use IT spam and col, and dg. Different rotation than anything else for a specific situation.
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