This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Communism Solution?
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
MyTie
So I was standing in the grocery store line today, buying egg nog, and thinking about the failures of communism. Not that egg nog itself is related to this story, but the fact I was a consumer is important. I know that a large reason that communism failed is because it is impossible for a beurocracy to adquately regulate the supply vs demand of an entire country's economy. How much are eggs worth today? Who decides that? What should we produce tommorrow?
Anyhow... I thought of a possible solution:
If everything in the economy where given a designation, and the economy where cataloged extensively through an electronic system. If milk production were to drop off due to a cow killing virus, the ration of egg nog per person would go down automatically. If one thing is affected, the economic map for everything that is affected would react according to the formula and scale applied to it. Adjustments might have to be made, but the software could make those in real time. In addition to this (and this is a problem all on its own) each person would be given a computer chip that would add them to the catalog, allow them to have their food rationed, and as they consumed, the products they prefered to be added to the catalog. If someone doesn't drink egg nog, the software could adjust the milk demand accordingly. Labor itself could also be cataloged and distributed.
This is a daunting task, with forseeable downfalls. For instance, if someone got control of the software, they could take over the country. Who would want a computer chip planted into them? How would education be rationed?
Anyway. I want to discuss the idea, its downfalls, and its strengths.
Post by
Deepthought
Why does it require chips in people? Surely some sort of checking system could be introduced at the till?
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
I don't see how that's really any different than a free-market except for the fact that you're introducing the government as a middleman. Why give the government a job doing something that the market can do automatically?
Edit: this is more of a response to the egg nog issue.
Post by
TheMediator
One thing I am sure of is that the transition into such a state would be bumpy indeed.
As you said as well, how education is rationed is a problem. Not every person is worth investing the same levels of education in. Additionally, those who do more mentally demanding work - is it fair for them to only receive the same ration as someone who does mindless labor? Even with people assigned based on their potential, some people will be doing harder work than others - what motivates them to work as hard as they should then?
Communism just has too many problems - not everyone deserves the same level of wealth, it just doesn't work that way. The skills of a doctor are more important than something like unskilled labor. While I don't know if I agree with pure capitalism, I think some capitalistic ideas are essential to creating the "best" sort of market place.
Post by
Deepthought
I don't see how that's really any different than a free-market except for the fact that you're introducing the government as a middleman. Why give the government a job doing something that the market can do automatically?
Hahaha yes, profit driven companies in control- a paradise.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
I don't see how that's really any different than a free-market except for the fact that you're introducing the government as a middleman. Why give the government a job doing something that the market can do automatically?
Hahaha yes, profit driven companies in control- a paradise.
No! Who said anything about giving companies power? You automatically assume I'm a capitalist because I'm anti-communist? I think capitalism is part of the problem. The power lies with the consumer in a free market.
Post by
TheMediator
Hahaha yes, profit driven companies in control- a paradise.
Indeed. You hear so often from some how great the free-market is and the free-market does what's best - yes, the free-market does what is best, for those making money. Then, you hear people saying that all these companies who made all these bad business decisions to make a quick buck are evil - no, they're doing exactly what you empowered them to do. If people would stop electing representatives who are stuck on that mindset, we would have less and less of these severe recessions (where companies are cashing out and watching things fall apart).
The power lies with the consumer in a free market.
lol. LOL. LOLOLOLOLOL. Consumers are addicted to what various companies provide - they can continue to up the price and you will keep buying the product. The companies have the power.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
The power lies with the consumer in a free market.
lol. LOL. LOLOLOLOLOL. Consumers are addicted to what various companies provide - they can continue to up the price and you will keep buying the product. The companies have the power.
This shows you don't understand the concept of a free market.
Post by
Deepthought
The power lies with the consumer in a free market.
I think your meaning of "free market" is different from mine. Please do explain.
Post by
TheMediator
The power lies with the consumer in a free market.
I think your meaning of "free market" is different from mine. Please do explain.
Same as well. I don't know if hyperspace has taken any economics classes yet, because it seems to me he's a little bit confused about what exactly the free-market is.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
The power lies with the consumer in a free market.
I think your meaning of "free market" is different from mine. Please do explain.
In Communism, the government is the sole regulator in the market.
In Capitalism, both the government and the consumer regulate the market.
In a Free-Market model, the only regulating force in the consumer himself. Any say the government or the companies has is only secondary or indirect.
Post by
TheMediator
You are mistaken then to the meaning of free-market. You mean to say you support a PERFECT market - I'm sure everyone does, its a nice thought that everyone plays nice and everyone does what is best for the whole. You won't see that happen though, because the way a perfect market is supposed to function differs dramatically with the way all real free-markets work.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
You mean to say you support a PERFECT market
No I don't. I believe some amount of government intervention is necessary. Hence the reason I'm not an anarchist.
Post by
Deepthought
In a Free-Market model, the only regulating force in the consumer himself.
Um, regulate the market? How? By setting up governing bodies or just by what they buy or what? Sorry for being rather obtuse here, but "regulating force" seems rather vague to me.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
In a Free-Market model, the only regulating force in the consumer himself.
Um, regulate the market? How? By setting up governing bodies or just by what they buy or what? Sorry for being rather obtuse here, but "regulating force" seems rather vague to me.
A market only exist though what's 'distributed.' Inventory that isn't sold or that sits in a warehouse isn't contributing to the market. Now if there are no restrictions on distribution, the only force powering it is the consumer. So, yes, it's regulation in a slightly different sense.
Post by
Deepthought
In a Free-Market model, the only regulating force in the consumer himself.
Um, regulate the market? How? By setting up governing bodies or just by what they buy or what? Sorry for being rather obtuse here, but "regulating force" seems rather vague to me.
A market only exist though what's 'distributed.' Inventory that isn't sold or that sits in a warehouse isn't contributing to the market. Now if there are no restrictions on distribution, the only force powering it is the consumer. So, yes, it's regulation in a slightly different sense.
But the idea that the consumer will buy only what benefits them is a false one.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
But the idea that the consumer will buy only what benefits them is a false one.
Benefit has nothing to do with it. The fact of the matter is that it's the consumer making the choice, not the government.
I never claimed people only buy things that are beneficial. I know that I do it sometimes myself.
Post by
Deepthought
Benefit has nothing to do with it. The fact of the matter is that it's the consumer making the choice, not the government.
You are fine with people making money off hurting other people who unknowingly pay to be hurt?
Post by
TheMediator
You don't seem to have any understanding of economics at all. Without any interference, even if suppliers are in perfect competition with each other - which is pretty much nonexistent for markets other than some very specific food markets - shocks to supply will result in changes in market. And in a perfect market, there is no consumer force - consumers act only to get the goods they desire at the price they desire, regardless of other consumers. If enough consumers want a good at a specific price, then suppliers will supply that good at that price, even if there are other consumers who would be willing to purchase that good if the price were lower.
In reality, perfect competition is very, very rare. Companies do in fact realize they have more to gain by NOT competing with each other, and they can often control the supply in a manner that benefits them. Most of the "important" goods that we buy are inelastic, meaning that more often than the suppliers can raise the price and still make profit. For elastic goods, who cares that consumers have market power, the very fact that consumers don't really need them means any power over them is trivial at best.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
You are fine with people making money off hurting other people who unknowingly pay to be hurt?
That's the consumer's fault for not informing themselves. It's better at least than having someone else tell you what to buy and not buy, in which case you're just as likely to be hurt unknowingly.
In effect most arguments you bring against the free market can be made against a government controlled market too.
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.