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[Balance - PvE] Moonkin Guide Discussion Thread.
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Post by
curlymon
This is the thread for open discussion or in depth questions about or relating to the Balance Spec. The guide has been moved to a different part of the site to take advantage of the many tools made available in the new guides section.
You can find the guide here
.
Feel free to tear it apart or ask any question no matter how silly it may sound. The only bad question is the one you do not ask. I just ask that you read through the guide itself before you pose one.
Post by
ProsperoVII
Few linking errors. But we still know what you're talking about. Other than those, this guide is very helpful! Thanks very much for putting this together and testing these out! Only thing I'd add is to emphasize again how much we dont need to focus on mana regen anymore. Im not really sure how we're doing it right now, but Im rarely running low on mana ever. Even when spamming moronically bad rotations. We have enough regen built into other important talents like Euphoria to keep us afloat.
Post by
492259
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
340332
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
340332
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
curlymon
Few linking errors. But we still know what you're talking about. Other than those, this guide is very helpful! Thanks very much for putting this together and testing these out! Only thing I'd add is to emphasize again how much we dont need to focus on mana regen anymore. Im not really sure how we're doing it right now, but Im rarely running low on mana ever. Even when spamming moronically bad rotations. We have enough regen built into other important talents like Euphoria to keep us afloat.
Currently a very large portion of our mana returns come from the 2% Mana return on critical strike.
And on the PTR Euphoria provides 12% mana regen every time you proc Eclipse.
If we don´t have mana problems then why 3/3 Moonglow?
Moonglow does feel like an impostor in the middle of the tree for us.
New build that avoids them.
I like it LOTS of great talents gained. Need to test regen viability on the PTR but it's looking great.
If youre not putting points in Fungal Growth, then
this
is what I reckon your talents should look like. Put the last 4 points where you see fit.
That's a great talent tree Les but the major problem with it is that it requires level 81 :P
Starfire is a better glyph then Moonfire currently, but just barely. The extension of the Moonfire DoT is essentially a 50% boost to it's damage which only works on half of your rotation making it worth a 25% boost, as compared to a 20% boost to the dot portion across both(40% total).
Post by
492259
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
oberondreaming
I have a question about how eclipse works.
Is there a viable reason that we
should
keep alternating eclipses? Doesn't this system basically allow you to, for instance:
1) Cast wrath to lunar eclipse
2) Cast starfire until neutral
3) Immediately switch back to wrath until lunar eclipse
Is there something in the system that prevents this? I haven't seen anything written about it, but I also haven't gotten on the PTR to test anything myself. If it is possible, is it feasibly a DPS increase to only use one Eclipse?
Another question: Do DoTs gain the eclipse bonus dynamically from tick to tick or is the eclipse bonus factored in when the spell is cast and then remain that way for the duration.
I posed the possibility of using Nature's Grace at the beginning of a neutral phase rather than at the beginning of an eclipse phase in Les' thread. I'm curious if you've looked at the possibilities. Since it's a flat number of Wrath/Starfire casts to get into and out of each eclipse, Haste is irrelevant for those spells (both in and out of eclipse). Haste gets you more DoT ticks in eclipse though which should be a DPS increase. But faster DoT ticks outside eclipse also, theoretically, increases your Shooting Stars procs, helping you get into eclipses faster. It might be more test-heavy (or math-heavy) than you want to do, but I thought I'd throw it out there again.
Post by
492259
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Post by
492259
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Post by
oberondreaming
You can´t go back as after you get lunar eclipse wrath will not gain any energy until you have Solar eclipse.
Ah thanks, I figured there was something going on, but hadn't seen anyone say anything specifically.
Post by
340332
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
curlymon
I have a question about how eclipse works.
Is there a viable reason that we
should
keep alternating eclipses? Doesn't this system basically allow you to, for instance:
1) Cast wrath to lunar eclipse
2) Cast starfire until neutral
3) Immediately switch back to wrath until lunar eclipse
Is there something in the system that prevents this? I haven't seen anything written about it, but I also haven't gotten on the PTR to test anything myself. If it is possible, is it feasibly a DPS increase to only use one Eclipse?
Once you reach one end the bar becomes one way until you reach the other direction, Even if you end an eclispe exactly on 0.
Another question: Do DoTs gain the eclipse bonus dynamically from tick to tick or is the eclipse bonus factored in when the spell is cast and then remain that way for the duration.
The eclipse bonus is applied at the beginning of the Dot and continues through it duration. You can no longer clip a dot.
I will test viability of stopping the transition to the next eclipse by recasting a dot, I doubt it will help but Dots are incredibly powerful now so it might be worth it.
I posed the possibility of using Nature's Grace at the beginning of a neutral phase rather than at the beginning of an eclipse phase in Les' thread. I'm curious if you've looked at the possibilities.
Natures grace has a 1 minute internal CD that resets upon reaching an eclipse.
You want he haste during the eclipse as Euphoria does not effect energy during eclipse, but it does outside of eclipse. this means the bar actually moves faster outside of eclipse then within.
With DoTs running 18s I´m trying to figure out if we need to reapply them before next eclipse or not.
Dots end outside of eclipse even with unhasted nukes. The only time you you encounter the opportunity to recast a Dot genuinely is if you had heavy movement and it feel off before you could leave eclipse.
Another reason to keep DoT uptime high for me is Shooting Star procs that we might miss if we let the DoTs fall off.
What I don´t get is if Glyph of Starsurge is better than Glyph of SF or MF. 25% lower time on Starfall (not counting shooting stars proc) > 20-25% damage on MF?
Dots actually continue to tick almost until the next eclipse is reached. Euphoria is a monster.
Starsurge Glyph actually allows you to Starfall every lunar cycle if you get enough Starsurges in :P
The problem is, that however strong dots are, they aren't as strong as themselves, and probably nukes (although I can't say that for sure as I'm not on the ptr) during eclipse. As the damage dots do is decided upon cast rather than per tick upon situation, it stands to reason that casting them in eclipse rather than outside of, and having the ticks do 37% more damage for their duration out of eclipse rather than their normal damage in eclipse and spending a gcd that could reduce the time til your next eclipse, would be a dps increase. It takes an average 20 dot ticks to proc Shooting Stars, so that's 2.1 dot casts on average, over their whole duration. If you're going to spend up to 3 gcds to get a proc that might reduce you're eclipse time by ~1.6 seconds then u need to look again at the theory.
Les. My insect swarm with glyph does 45k dmg per cast on average with Eclipse and NG proc, all at the cost of a gcd. No nuke even approaches that. And i can confirm that the Dot that procs NG does not gain it's bonus so Sunfire always goes before Insect Swarm. As above they do not lose the eclipse bonus even if you leave eclipse itself.
For myself, the NG'd insect swarm ticks for 15 ticks all on it's own, at 1.2 second intervals. In addition to the Sun fire ticking for 12 ticks at 1.5 seconds each
Post by
Joim
I'm gonna go with
this
, as mana has proven to not to be a problem in PTR. If it becomes a problem, I'll go 2/3 Moonglow (from gale winds). Maybe I'll go all overgrowth or perhaps I'll take solar beam and 1/2 gale winds, just for utility.
For the rotation, I still gotta install recount on PTR, but it's more complicated than before for sure. I'm starting to think that keeping both dots is gonna be a major dps increase, gotta keep testing though.
Lol @ captcha, official retuard
Post by
curlymon
I'm gonna go with
this
, as mana has proven to not to be a problem in PTR. If it becomes a problem, I'll go 2/3 Moonglow (from gale winds). Maybe I'll go all overgrowth or perhaps I'll take solar beam and 1/2 gale winds, just for utility.
For the rotation, I still gotta install recount on PTR, but it's more complicated than before for sure. I'm starting to think that keeping both dots is gonna be a major dps increase, gotta keep testing though.
Lol @ captcha, official retuard
That would be the current Spec listed in the guide up top :P
The rotation is pretty straight forward and easy to follow currently. most of what is left to figure out about it is subtleties that would probably account for less then a 1% increase but we all love boosts!
Post by
ProsperoVII
Rotation doesn't seem like an accurate description anymore. Does it? It's more like having 4 phases instead. (Or maybe 2 phases. Depends on how you look at it.) And even then, Shooting Stars can change things more. It's not really a simple step-pattern. More like various types of spams injected with a few other spells.
Post by
curlymon
Rotation doesn't seem like an accurate description anymore. Does it? It's more like having 4 phases instead. (Or maybe 2 phases. Depends on how you look at it.) And even then, Shooting Stars can change things more. It's not really a simple step-pattern. More like various types of spams injected with a few other spells.
I see it as something more like phases.
Buildup
Lunar
Solar
Repeat from Lunar until dead.
Post by
ProsperoVII
Very much agreed. Which is very appealing, or at least seems so because it's new. Much like Shaman are just gonna zerk out on the keyboard with no rotation and just use whatever spell happens to be best at a given moment due to any number of crazy proc abilities. Ours is a little more relaxed. But still a little of the same feel right now in my opinion. Should be fun. Or least not boring for a while. :)
Post by
curlymon
Should be fun. Or least not boring for a while. :)
They really did a good job changing the feel up without redoing everything entirely. I'm really enjoying my time playing around with the new rotation and gearing quite a bit.
Post by
curlymon
PTR changed eclipse to be 6% + 1.5% per mastery. Which brings us to the question if if there is a point where mastery is better then haste for both gemming and reforging, if the base is tweaked with. There is no heavy modeling done yet on these things so we will have to wing it until others have had the chance to number crunch but my intuition tells me Haste will be better nearly always at the current level of scaling, but we shall see. If anyone has some thoughts feel free to speak up!
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