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Abortion Debate
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Post by
MyTie
Oh, ok. I don't know if that's good enough reason to move to Ireland.
Post by
933205
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Laihendi
While undoubtedly a tragedy by anyone's standards, the elimination of the foetus will never have quite the same impact.
I bet the foetus in question would disagree, if he/she could.
The fetus is about as incapable of making a decision like that as a clam or a tree. Is there any evidence to suggest that a fetus even has a will to live, or that a fetus is sentient?
Post by
MyTie
Is there any evidence to suggest that a fetus even has a will to live, or that a fetus is sentient?
No. There isn't. These are requirements for a right to live?
Post by
Laihendi
Is there a right to life? If there is, who has it, and why? Does anything recognizable as being alive have it? Does a cell have a right to life? Does a virus?
If a life form has no will to live and no sentience, it is incapable of caring whether it continues to live or dies. How is killing a life form like that any worse than picking a flower?
Post by
MyTie
Is there a right to life? If there is, who has it? Does anything recognizable as being alive have it? Does a cell have a right to life? Does a virus?Do you have a right to life?How is killing a life form like that any worse than picking a flower?
Because of the arrogance in the judgement as to who deserves to live, and who doesn't. The unborn baby is demonstrably human, and alive, and individual. To say that it is a living human being, but is unworthy of life is to cross a line that no human should desire to cross, due to empathy.
Post by
Laihendi
Is there a right to life? If there is, who has it? Does anything recognizable as being alive have it? Does a cell have a right to life? Does a virus?Do you have a right to life?Laihendi cannot say that he does. He does desire to live, however.
How is killing a life form like that any worse than picking a flower?
Because of the arrogance in the judgement as to who deserves to live, and who doesn't. The unborn baby is demonstrably human, an alive, and individual. To say that it is a living human being, but is unworthy of life is to cross a line that no human should desire to cross, due to empathy.
Who is making that judgement? Honestly, Laihendi has no answers for the questions he is asking you. Because of this, he does not have an opinion over whether or not abortion is wrong. Laihendi certainly is not deciding that some life deserves to live, or some life doesn't.
A lump of cells is certainly alive, but how is it human, and how is it an individual? It has no thoughts, desires, or values. What makes it so special to you?
Post by
MyTie
You can classify the flesh as human flesh, due to its biological makeup, and you can classify it as an individual, due to its DNA.
Honestly, if you don't believe that humans have a right to live, and if you cannot measure the right or wrong of taking life, then considering abortion is probably too much. Consider the basics first. Is it right to kill? Is there a right to life? After you figure that out for yourself, then argue the specifics, such as abortion.
Post by
Laihendi
Laihendi is about to be busy and will be unable to continue discussing this for a while, though he will continue later.
Would you explain why you believe humans do have a right to live?
Also, a point Laihendi wants to make. It is impossible not to kill life and live yourself. Every time you eat, you are eating dead things that used to be alive. Every time you take an antibiotic you are killing bacteria. Why do you value human life more than other forms of life?
Post by
MyTie
Empathy. It answers all of your questions. I can empathize with humans, not bacteria. That is an answer you should be able to relate to. I would answer with religious info, but I don't think we are on the same page there.
Could you torture a 5 year old boy? Probably not. Why not? You torture other lesser creatures with mundane activities. I'm sure that it isn't pleasant for bacteria when you take an anti bacterial. Your argument is a way of trivializing human life. Like I said, you need to put a value on human life before you can really follow this line of thinking. I have put the value of "invaluable" onto human life, so I do not approve of abortion.
Post by
Laihendi
Your empathy explains why human life is valuable to you, but it does not explain that human life is universally valuable. It explains why you do not harm human life, but it does not explain why someone or something else should not harm human life. If someone does not empathize with a human fetus, is it okay for him/her to kill it? Is your position on abortion that it is wrong and that no one should be allowed to practice it, or that you disapprove of it and choose not to participate in it yourself?
You say that Laihendi's argument trivializes human life. Are some humans not trivial? If a fetus is incapable of thought and desire, and its own parents care for it so little that they want it aborted so that they will not be bothered with it, how is its existence not trivial? Who or what is it important to? To you? If you aren't even aware of the existence of this fetus because you have never met or heard of its parents, how can you care for it? The fetus lives in a world where no one cares for it, not even itself.
Post by
MyTie
Empathy is what causes me to place value on human life. In fact, it is a nearly universal human, and when absent of the psychology of a person, is usually accompanied by mental illnesses. You could place monetary value on empathy, because empathy is what holds together society. So, you could say that not going around murdering people contributes to the foundation of social interaction, thus progress, and value.
There is value in human life, even if it isn't consequential human life. Even without firsthand knowledge of said human life, it is valueable. If you were transported to a desert where you couldn't care for yourself, and for some reason everyone had their memory of you erased, would you lose value?
Humans hold inherent value. They must. It is demanded from the conscious of any other healthy human. That is what empathy is. That is the measure.
Post by
Laihendi
A fetus is incapable of social interaction, so how is killing one harming social interaction among people in general?
You seem to imply that someone without empathy for other humans is likely mentally ill. Is someone with different values from the majority mentally ill? Do people in general even empathize with fetuses? Empathy, as Laihendi understands it, means to vicariously experience the feelings of another. If a fetus has no feelings, what is there to vicariously feel? What is there to empathize with? Do you really empathize with a fetus or do you merely imagine that you empathize with it, the way a young girl imagines that she empathizes with a doll?
There is value in human life, even if it isn't consequential human life. Even without firsthand knowledge of said human life, it is valueable. If you were transported to a desert where you couldn't care for yourself, and for some reason everyone had their memory of you erased, would you lose value?Laihendi would value himself. Nobody else would, because nobody else would be aware of Laihendi's existence, and from an isolated desert it would be impossible to have any significant influence on anyone else's lives. The significant difference here between a fetus and Laihendi is that a fetus is incapable of valuing itself.
Post by
MyTie
I empathize with the human experience because I am a human.
I value you, as you are a human. You don't gain value simply because you value yourself and no one else does. You gain value as a human.
Further, this is pretty moot. Even if there is not value on a particular class of people, it is a mistake to think that any one person is qualified to determine that that class of people can be robbed of their life. Does a foetus have value? It is the responsible thing to assume every human has value, and not to place anyone as the executioner for any human. No one is qualified to make that decision.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
1069282
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
OverZealous
Dear Forumtrolls (no ofensive) I came to ask some things...
Is Abortion bad thing? And why?
Is Fetus a "person"?
When Abortion is allowed? Can you do abortion I you have got raped? Can you do abortion if the mother is in danger and the danger has been coused by fetus?
Do you see anything good in abortion?
(I hope you understood my questions).
Yours Tush (Samuel)
All of that has been answered thoroughly by many different posters in this thread. I would recommend you read the thread in its entirety, there are a lot of good arguments and interesting viewpoints.
Post by
MasterOfDisguise
Dear Forumtrolls (no ofensive) I came to ask some things...
Is Abortion bad thing? And why?
Is Fetus a "person"?
When Abortion is allowed? Can you do abortion I you have got raped? Can you do abortion if the mother is in danger and the danger has been coused by fetus?
Do you see anything good in abortion?
(I hope you understood my questions).
Yours Tush (Samuel)
All of that has been answered thoroughly by many different posters in this thread. I would recommend you read the thread in its entirety, there are a lot of good arguments and interesting viewpoints.
Another recommendation: If you want to foster a
serious
conversation, I would advise starting off with something more tactful than "Dear forumtrolls." =/
Post by
MyTie
So, if something might be murder, people should have the choice to do it, because their beliefs differ? Murder is what the individual believes it to be? A living human being is defined by opinion? The unborn baby is not an inanimate object, therefore it is alive. The unborn baby is human, not pig nor giraffe nor cow. The unborn baby is autonomous from the mother, as can be demonstrated by its unique DNA. Therefore, the unborn is a living human being. Why should anyone have the choice to kill it? I am not just pro-life, I am anti-choice. Some pro-deathers use it as a pejorative, but I like it. I am against the mother being able to decide to kill her baby.
Post by
MyTie
My step daughter comes from a terrible relationship. I !@#$ing HATE the idea that a child is NOTHING MORE than a product of the two people that person came from. What a $%^&ty way of looking at life, and what a ^&*!ty conclusion to come to: abortion. Pfft.
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