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I raid frost and I'm always top 5
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Post by
elilla
Actually it's the fire/arcane mages who are carrying the bad raiders(and raids). When they're pulling an extra 1000-2200dps, dps from other sources is less of an issue in such that the death of one person can be offset. Frost only supplies a mediocre amount of regen plus the same crit buff that fire provides, and warlocks give.
Raiding works from a team stance, losses+gains=success. That includes deaths, RTU, RTD, regen issues and everything between.
Most people while they play this as a game also realize that there's more theory to it than OMG SUSTAINED DPS, in a spiraled loop. Which does nothing for the raid, when stabbitymcstabbers dies 1min in. And once you move from ah well, we're gonna just clear this tonight to 'well lets go and clear this and this and this tonight plus nab us extra loot so we can do even better the next', the issues grow.
BiS evolves to BiS+spec, and from there to self optimization, and so on. Which is one reason why some of the top frost raiders told blizz to go do something special with themselves at the start of WoTLK.
Post by
220531
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Fyuu
I wouldn't laugh at 4k dps by any means..
Funny. Didn't seem that way with your "OMGLOL SIF RAID FROST" crap you put out in the "Mages in 3.1" thread. =P
Anyway, in regards to the topic at hand I do feel for the OP and agree with him wholeheartedly; there are a lot of uncertain variables in an actual raid that pure theorycrafting can't take into account. Being able to throw off the odd FoF Ice Lance and refresh Ice Barrier on the move is plenty helpful, among other things. That said, the core message from the opposition is that assuming equal skill, you will usually put out better numbers with a different spec.
Keep in mind that I also raid TTW/Frost and I'm proud of it, but there's no sense in getting worked up because a few nitwits in the game are too full of themselves to acknowledge your contribution when you make it. If you cared
that
much about DPS, chances are you wouldn't be fussed over what spec you were, but possibly what class you roll, too. If you enjoy mage, enjoy it the way you want to and keep pushing forward. Most decent Death Knights have recently had the same issue with "proving" themselves, so you're not alone.
Post by
250116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Fyuu
Blah blah-freakin'-blah! People who don't think like me can't raid, blah blah etc etc.
Get it through your noggin; Frost. Can. Raid.
No-one is disputing that other specs do more damage. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
You obviously missed the point I was trying to make; if you as an individual care
so much
about raw damage, you have to question why you're playing a mage in the first place when there are Hunter, Warrior & Warlock specs (among others) that will put out similair and in some cases, even more damage.
The top DPS in my guild is a warlock; does that mean everyone in my guild should roll warlocks?
It's not rocket science.
Post by
Achloryn
I wouldn't laugh at 4k dps by any means..
Funny. Didn't seem that way with your "OMGLOL SIF RAID FROST" crap you put out in the "Mages in 3.1" thread. =P
what i said was that if you know you can pull that much DPS as frost, and then you KNOW thta you can pull more DPS as a different spec, why wouldn't you want to pull more DPS? that's kind of the point of raiding isn't it? to kill ^&*!, and the quicker you kill it, the better chances you have of NOT wiping.. of course that responsibility is not solely relagated to you individually, but why would you hold it back if you were capable of helping it more?
Post by
220531
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Fyuu
This is turning into a flame fest - so I'll be blunt.
1) Play what you want. I couldn't care less what a person I don't know likes to do with their mage. If it works and they have fun. Good.
2) naxx-wotlk was a joke. no encounter actually demanded good performance out of dps outside 6 min malys or 10 man 3-d sarth
3) content hasn't been a damage joke, won't always be.
4) if there is an actual dps race fight, frost is a liability as compared to "the big three" mage specs
Again, do what you want, play what you want. I couldn't care less. but don't come back and complain about not having the raid dps to get something down when you're knowingly taking a spec that's below a different spec in damage.
I agree wholeheartedly. <3 Dualspec.
Post by
150866
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Fyuu
Get it through your noggin; Frost. Can. Raid.
Of course it can. It's just not the best in the majority of cases, and with respeccing being a relatively simple process, it's not recommended by most people. Just don't think you're... oh-so-cool for it, to put it bluntly, as I can't find a better way of saying it.
Not a problem with the bluntness. I cackled a little at the pun anyway. =P
Post by
250116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
79146
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Fyuu
*chalk outline of a dictionary, several torn pages and blood stains*
You
vindictively
insult someone else's playstyle; they respond and you tell them to cry less? Nice.
<--- Official forums are thaddaway.
Is it any wonder Frosties feel the need to defend themselves?
Post by
321957
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Fyuu
Welcome to the fray, Fyuu.
Dude, I was here first. =P
(Again, the real point here is not that frost is universally the best, since it isn't. The point is that some people enjoy playing it, and it is good enough that in almost all situations, it should be perfectly acceptable.)
This. Once again, why is this so hard for some to understand?
Post by
wolf
i've been doing great as a frost raider, but i'm starting to wonder if i'm making it worse for myself
i just really hate refreshing scorch, and i leveled up as arcane so i'm sick of that
Post by
Spinnacer
I'm sorry OP, i do not believe you, at all.
Post by
brrobid
Well, I "grew up" frost. I've followed the theorycrafting the whole way, and drank the anti-frost (for raiding) kool-aid.
When 3.1 launched, I dutifully paid my 1000g (so I could keep my frost spec for farming & dailies) and spec'd the 20/51/0 TTW/Fireball spec.
By the time I found a glyph of living bomb for under 200g (yesterday), I had come to a couple realizations:
My guild isn't raiding much yet, I'm still pugging. Even when I do raid w/ the guild, we still end up picking up a couple pugs.
Pugs aren't a good source of solid tanks and healers. If you've got a weak tank or a weak healer, you're likely to die from collateral damage (poor positioning by tank, no heals, etc)
Dead mages do zero dps.
At that point, I stopped switching to my "raid spec".
As we've been hearing, pre 3.1 content is "weak", "easy" ... "a joke". Frost damage is good enough. And in some cases significantly better than the best fire and arcane ... cause they're dead. Yes, I know, that's not always the case. But when mages go squish on collateral damage, they're much more likely to be the mage
not
wearing the Ice Barrier.
You guys who are lucky enough to be in a good raiding guild, are just that: lucky.
Your tanks know how to get/hold agro. They take the time to learn the fights, and understand positioning to minimize collateral damage to your dps. Your healers know how to heal through collateral damage, and are able to do so, because the tanks aren't putting undue stress on them.
The rest of us? We gotta make do, and figure out how to survive on our own .. that generally means frost, and losing a GCD to pop a shield, and all that.
If you're in a good raiding guild, that's well organized with serious players, this whole discussion really doesn't apply to you. Of course you take the top dps potential spec .. how stupid would it be not to?
But for pugs and up-and-coming guilds, if you're the raid leader, and you'd prefer some mage that can do 5.5K dps (until he dies after putting out 200k damage) over a 4K dps mage who stays up the whole fight and finishes over the 500k mark ... well, go ahead. I'll find someone else to run with (numbers made up on the fly, of course, not a real example)
Now, all of that said ...
When my guild gets to the point where we're doing raiding in a serious way, I'll spec whatever they need. You do what's best for the guild .. not what you want.
I've been in Black Temple where half the raid was level 80 (and everyone was 70+), thinking they were going to OP the place. Wiped on the first pull .. repeatedly .. thinking back on it, it was frikkin hilarious.
But the point is, end game content is H.A.R.D. One guy not pulling their weight is going to cause the entire raid to fail. If that's you, they'll figure it out soon enough, and then they'll be happy to name you "first alternate" in case someone else can't make it for that run.
Until you hit "hard" content though .. the debate is rather .. pointless.
Post by
222018
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
onelove221
Just to reiterate what was being said here, raiding frost in Naxx = OK, if you really want to be contrarian.
Raiding as frost in Ulduar = FAIL.
Every second a boss stays up is more damage for the tanks to withstand, more damage for the healers to mitigate and more damage for the dps to survive.
Gimping your DPS, and make no mistake, by speccing frost that is exactly what you are doing, imperils the other 24 people in your raid by forcing them to have to stay alive that much longer.
If your guild and raid leaders are OK with that then fine, but as a general modus operandi it kind of sucks.
I say this as a lover of frost. I raided frost from 1-70 all the way up to BT (we never got past the first boss in Sunwell in my old guild) and I was on these very forums defending the rights of frosties in TBC.
Needless to say, by the time WOTLK came out the writing was on the wall. Mages will raid as Fire, FFB, or Arcane or they will put out subpar DPS.
Period.
4k Dps is fine for Naxx, but you aren't going to be pulling your weight on 3D Sarth let alone Ulduar. The fact that 'locks are beating you on the meters should be telling you something. I raid as Arcane and the only DPS that can stay with my guild's arcane mages are fire mages, full T7.5 fury warriors and DKs.
That's it.
Balls out, a good fire or arcane mage can pull between 6-7Kdps.
'locks got gimped in WOTLK and aren't even on my yardstick for DPS comparisons anymore.
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