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Why is GHeal bad for Discicpline?
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Post by
Nitefoxxy
rezzem. your talking about an if and when. he was askin for now.
not that your point isnt a good one. i honestly hardly use GH unless i deem it completely the best spell to use. someties between penance CD's it takes more than one flash. and as far as i see it 1 GH is more efficient than 2-3 flash heals.
i hate that its sorta turned into an argument. it shouldnt be. i am guilty of loving a good debate.
on a side note though 3.1 is gonna be awesome. more of a challenge to be sure. and thats great!
http://ptr.wowhead.com/?talent
will i think what im goin for in 3.1 just oo bad the reduced cast time is needed to hit what i wanted. ill prolly play around with it alot though when the time comes. as of now im 58/13 for essentially the same disc talents
edit to add. yeah rezzem your point of the comparison is noted and valid. i just support the use of any spell that is "right spell at the right time" i dont think the OP would argue that Gheal is way ineficient than penance. i was supporting its situational use. just to be clear on what i was pointing out.
Post by
240805
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
razzem
Well I hear ya. Nothing like a healthy debate for some theorycrafting, right?
To be fair, there are some times where I *could* see using G.Heal, ie, the tank is at -8k. But in a raid scenario, it's almost a guarenteed overheal, sometimes by 100% because it's too slow. In a 5 man, I'd rather just use F.Heals for the DA crits. I suppose you could make a stronger case for using G.Heal in 5 mans. But remember it costs 32% base mana.
Post by
Nitefoxxy
Two Flash Heals is still more efficient than one Greater Heal for a Disc Priest, and it'll still be faster. I've given proof why Greater Heal is almost always the wrong answer when it comes to choosing a heal, so why do you choose to refute that and continue using it?
no. with gylph of flash heal my Fh cost 625 mana. two would be 1250. GH cost 1235 mana. my Flash averages 3.7-4.1k hp. my GH averages 8k-8.4 so less than double the mana for more than double the heal. therefore GH (ready for it? here comes the key words) WHEN THE SITUATION CALLS FOR IT is better. furthermore: with my current haste FH is a 1.32 second cast so 2 would be 2.64 secs while my GH is 2.56 sec cast. so to not use it WHEN THE SITUATION CALLS FOR IT is being stubborn. i want to say ignorant but i know your not.
so here's the senario Boss X enrages and hits tank hard dropping him from 26k health to 10k health you shield, penance. (penance crits only once so you heal about 13k (rough estimates here) he is still down 3k you start your GH in anticipation of another big enraged hit on your tank. he is still 3k hp down during cast he gets that hit going down again to 18k health GH hits he is full. penance is STILL on CD the CD is 6 secs. you took 2.56 secs to GH. NOW flash is better to top off till penance is up. So to heal that gh amount youd need 2 flash or more thus being less efficient than GH.
There a reason to use GH.
you yourself said "almost always the wrong choice" never once did anyone say GH is the be all end all disc heal. not once.
Now i dont know why your being so stubborn. I dont know why you are getting bent out of shape cuz some people would disagree with you. i note valid points when brought up by someone. Can you not do the same?
Post by
269406
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Post by
341389
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
karlusdavius
If you are sensible you will stack haste to 10% come 3.1. We need considerably less haste than a holy priest due to
Enlightenment
. This will put your flash heal at 1 second cast time. Within a two second time frame (in an ideal lag free raid) you will heal for an average 12,000 without crits.
With 10% haste you will bring your
Greater Heal
down to 2.5 second cast time. Where within that 2.5 second cast time you will heal on average 9,000 without crits.
Factor in
Divine Fury
. You bring that cast time to 2 seconds. The heal amount stays unchanged.
Post by
PrimeSonic
Lots of debate. Nice, it leads to an active forum.
Like I mentioned before, you can get by without it, but you can still make occasional use of it when you have Inner Focus up.
When Inner Focus is up, Greater Heal is the better choice over Flash Heal. Not much you can say against that. If I've got a free heal with extra crit chance, I'll use it on the biggest, most expensive heal I've got.
Yes, Flash Heal is still the bread and butter spell between Penance cooldowns and there's lots of other things to keep yourself entertained between them. But again, if you've got a single free spell to chuck around, mana cost is 0, you'd be crazy to spend it on something small (if you have the time to cast it).
This pretty much was how I always used it and might continue to use it.
~
Again, look at the Holy Talents we have to spend to reach
Inspiration
, a talent with plenty of synergy with our entire play style. Some might try to go as far as
Improved Healing
to make GHeal and Penance even more cost effective. Personally I figure that far is a matter of choice and I won't hold it against you if you do or don't take it.
Anyways, when you look at your options, 15% more Renew is nice, but it's also a mana inefficient spell for Discipline and you can sadly OOM by spamming it. So really, this part to me is a matter of personal preference and how you choose to make the most of what talents you had to take for something just a tier lower.
Post by
Aldones
You keep talking about using IF on GH if Penance is on CD...if your willing to wait a couple seconds, you can use IF
on
Penance, a much better choice in my opinion. Especially in 3.1 when you have
Glyph of Penance
and
Aspiration
working in your favor.
Post by
razzem
Penance glyphed with Aspiration talent has a 6.4second cooldown in 3.1.
Sounds like a bug. Talent and Glyph should give it both -2 seconds for a total of -4.
You should report that! :D
Post by
Xuxa
Penance glyphed with Aspiration talent has a 6.4second cooldown in 3.1.
Sounds like a bug. Talent and Glyph should give it both -2 seconds for a total of -4.
You should report that! :D
I believe one is two seconds, and the other is twenty percent. If you apply the two seconds first, then twenty percent of 8 seconds is only 1.6 reduction.
I expect this is working as intended.
Post by
razzem
Ah, well that would explain it. Sucky, :X
Post by
PrimeSonic
You keep talking about using IF on GH if Penance is on CD...if your willing to wait a couple seconds, you can use IF
on
Penance, a much better choice in my opinion. Especially in 3.1 when you have
Glyph of Penance
and
Aspiration
working in your favor.
I can think of many situations where using Inner Focus on Penance would be a waste.
You shouldn't be wasting Penance on dps if you can help it, so a quick GHeal could go their way and reserve the incoming Penance for the tank.
Sometimes a big Prayer of Healing is needed and with it's mana heavy cost, you'll want to have your Inner Focus saved.
Penance is already pretty mana efficient so using up your Inner Focus cooldown on it seems like a poor decision. I tend to save it for use on the mana intensive and infrequent but situationally critical heals.
Post by
Ethix
Interesting topic...
However, I don't see the point to even consider talking about being mana efficient as disc, when right there disc has essentially infinite mana (with some gear I suppose). With raid buffs and my disc gear on, I get up to around 26k mana-- I have no qualms using gheal over flash heal.
Both of the spells have there niche, and when your raid is underhealing an instance-- using gheal gets bigger numbers out with less time spent casting.
This however will become pretty null and void come 3.1, when we get improved flash heal. By that time, gheal is useless imo. Also, penance is arguably the best healing spell in the game, so it should always be on cooldown. ;)
Post by
Patty
~
Again, look at the Holy Talents we have to spend to reach
Inspiration
, a talent with plenty of synergy with our entire play style. Some might try to go as far as
Improved Healing
to make GHeal and Penance even more cost effective. Personally I figure that far is a matter of choice and I won't hold it against you if you do or don't take it.
Imo that argument is moot, because every priest has to spend atleast 14 points in discipline to get IF + Meditation which are main regen tools, which gives nice synergy to every priest and their mana pool.
Post by
Aldones
Imo that argument is moot, because every priest has to spend atleast 14 points in discipline to get IF + Meditation which are main regen tools, which gives nice synergy to every priest and their mana pool.
I've seen way to many priests that skip IF b/c they consider it a waste of a talent...I don't care if your disc, holy, shadow, or some hybrid...IF works wonders for you.
Post by
Patty
Which is why I said IF + Meditation, which both give brilliant synergy to the class.
Post by
Nitefoxxy
no. with gylph of flash heal my Fh cost 625 mana. two would be 1250. GH cost 1235 mana. my Flash averages 3.7-4.1k hp. my GH averages 8k-8.4 so less than double the mana for more than double the heal. therefore GH (ready for it? here comes the key words) WHEN THE SITUATION CALLS FOR IT is better. furthermore: with my current haste FH is a 1.32 second cast so 2 would be 2.64 secs while my GH is 2.56 sec cast. so to not use it WHEN THE SITUATION CALLS FOR IT is being stubborn. i want to say ignorant but i know your not.
so here's the senario Boss X enrages and hits tank hard dropping him from 26k health to 10k health you shield, penance. (penance crits only once so you heal about 13k (rough estimates here) he is still down 3k you start your GH in anticipation of another big enraged hit on your tank. he is still 3k hp down during cast he gets that hit going down again to 18k health GH hits he is full. penance is STILL on CD the CD is 6 secs. you took 2.56 secs to GH. NOW flash is better to top off till penance is up. So to heal that gh amount youd need 2 flash or more thus being less efficient than GH.
There a reason to use GH.
you yourself said "almost always the wrong choice" never once did anyone say GH is the be all end all disc heal. not once.
Now i dont know why your being so stubborn. I dont know why you are getting bent out of shape cuz some people would disagree with you. i note valid points when brought up by someone. Can you not do the same?
Interesting, but ...
(Using your middle averages of 3.9k Flash Heal, and 8.2k Greater)
The Greater saved you 15 mana, .8 seconds cast time, and gained 400 health.
Now - lemme check your example of this 3 second-ish window. In your scenario (and I assume it's in a raid setting - where you won't be the only healer .. because - he enrages)- you're banking that the tank *will* take a big hit & that other healers don't heal. Because, well - IF he doesn't or they do - then, you've made a mistake. 1 flash could've been enough, the greater would overheal, costing more mana, and generating less than maximum Rapture return - so all in all, GHeal would be the worse of the two options.
But, we'll go with you being right, and he gets hit big and no one else has chipped in. Something you left out- 2 Flashes have double the chance to proc a DA. I'll assume you're sitting around 30% crit, which means choosing the 2 Flashes - turns "possibly" proccing - into "probably" proccing.
So, I guess in that scenario - it *could* have turned out to be the right decision. But, in all honesty - it still wasn't the smart play. The numbers were against you.
-Chances that someone else chips in during your GHeal cast and you overheal, and you will have used/not returned maximum mana = Better than not.
-Chances that DA will proc of one of the 2 flashes = greater than the chance 1 will proc off the GHeal.
Now, IMO - it is probable that someone else heals the tank & also is probable that one of the flashes crit.
These 'probabilities' outweigh the potential gains of 15 mana, .8 seconds saved, and 400 health by a long shot.
But like I said, your move could turn out to be barely better ... but not often enough to make it my usual move in that situation - , still - even if it happened to work out your way .. not the smart play.
i personaly just came up with a hypothetical.
In my guild ive just been running heroics and 10 mans. i have to admit to a lack of crit i sit at 20% holy crit. so thats 1 in 5 chance. I'm also our tank healer. i run naxx with 1 shaman face roller. I heal the tanks, we have a great trust with each other so most of the time, with exception of a couple bosses, I heal the tank. no chipping in if theres aoe goin around.
I'm kinda at a loss with "come 3.1" comments.....its not 3.1 yet. The real point was the OP wanted to know why Gh shouldnt be on his action bar when in all honesty it should for SITUATIONAL use. I find GH useful in some 5 man heroics. bosses enrage in more than 25 man content. (of course i pain suppress when that happens and chooose my next heal acordingly)
As far as overhealing...um seriously who cares about alil over heal. id rather over heal than underheal
you make a nice point and all but its a hypothectical. im talking about a situational use not a main use. of course flash is our better choice MOST but not ALL the time. no one refuted that at all.
PLEASE no more "You're wrong come 3.1" that isnt here yet so point to me becomes invalid when talkin about the here and now
Post by
karlusdavius
3.1 is close tho. And usually its a good idea to look at both points. Personally i have my 7 and 8 keybinds set to penance
7 = penance
8 = penance macro with IF
If your good enough, your tank should never, ever get down to a stage where penance or flash heal wont be able 2 top them off. therefor flash heal is your best route to go. In scenarios where your tank just dropped to the point of you !@#$ting your pants, the ideal route would be to shield against incoming damage that would kill him otherwise, follow up with a quick penance (IF active it you have 2 buttons like me) then flash heal him up. He should be at max.
The main reason i don't use greater heal is becuase i dont like the time frame. I have 10% haste. 1 second flash heal is very, very good at getting heals in quicker on every occasion. The only time, and i mean the ONLY time i would use greater heal, is if i know my tank will be taking 10k hits very soon for a period of time. That being said, in that scenario, i use Power Infusion, bringing greater heal down to around 1.3/1.4 seconds in cast time. Much better. But thats it. other than that, i just dont see myself needed to heal 8k that frequently.
Post by
Samanosuke
In most cases, a Gheal will never be fully effective.
Flash Heal on the other hand, heals for about
half
in
half
the amount of time, for
half
the amount of mana.
It provides a more timely heal and gives the priest flexibility in their rotation.
If someone's HP is dropping like a rock....
After flash Heal #1 on the Tank, you can simply throw a shield at the member, then pick up Flash Heal #2 on the tank again.
Compare this to either stopcasting to heal that same member. (Heals on tank canceled)
Waiting until the Gheal is finished
Or healing the member first, then casting a Gheal (major lag in incoming heals for the Tank).
Also, 2x Flash Heal provides more inspiration procs over Gheal.
Also, the
5 point talent
investment needed to make Gheal usable is a bit steep.
Considering the fact that I use 2X flash heal in place of Gheal, I'd much rather take 3/3 Improved Renew and 2/3 Spell Warding or a flat 5/5 Spell Warding.
I'd like to see 2 things....
1) Show me a combat report using Greater Heal as your main heal, and show me the overhealing done.
2)Show me a combat report using Flash Heal as your main heal, and show me the overhealing done.
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