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Skribs' PvP DK Handbook
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Post by
146010
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Post by
dronne25
Why am I bothering responding? "most" people = 3 classes, 4 counting resto spec shaman. Thats not most people. Anyway, the whole point is to slap MoB on someone who can't dispel it, and those its most useful on cannot - and if they have a teammate that can dispel, sit on them hard so that they don't have the GCDs to wipe it out. MoB can further be protected by having your partners throw up some other debuffs on the target-faerie fire, DoTs, etc.
Additionally, almost every useful ability in this game is dispellable. Sure MoB has a longer CD then a lot of them, but that's because its pretty dang useful. Timing the use is everything and that separates the good players from the bad.
Also, I'm not "hailing it as the best ability DKs have" - reread the post. I said that if you're running unholy with an 18 pt blood sub-spec as suggested, its worth the trade everyday of the week to put 3 points from deep unholy out of RoR etc. to go a little deeper and get MoB. The added utility of MoB is going to be more useful in the vast majority of comps.
Another thought on NoTD - unlike say a fel puppy, which returns to its master and loses its target when it gets too far away, the ghoul is de-summoned instead of returning. If you try to stick it on a healer to keep him in combat and the healer wants to go drink and based on positioning decides to try out-range your pet (its a very common resto druid tactic and one that can work for the other healers too), and the ghoul does get out of range, you have no more ghoul and won't be getting him back anytime soon.
Post by
256079
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Post by
251828
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Post by
248043
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Post by
skribs
Spanky, now factor in armor, and the fact that SS gets 13% damage bonus from Ebon Plague, and you'll see that SS isn't as weak as it appears.
EDIT: Assuming the target has 0 armor, and there are no other factors involved, SS should end up doing ~61% of the damage of OB (the added damage and damage from diseases is just under 65%, but the weapon damage is the biggest factor). This doesn't require a lot of stats to see, and it is an approximation, but any exact values you give are going to be approximate in terms of ratio to the overall picture, anyway. Now if you multiply 0.61 * 1.13 (to factor in Ebon Plague) you are then looking at 68.93% compared to the damage of OB. Now, it takes 31.07% damage reduction due to armor to make SS more powerful than OB. Anyone in mail, especially with a shield (but even hunters) should have enough armor to make SS more powerful than OB, as well as druids in any form except maybe cat form.
Yeah, rogues and clothies may be more subject to the damage of OB, but that doesn't change the fact that 5.8/10 classes (since ONE druid form is low on armor) will take more damage from SS.
Post by
146010
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Post by
241168
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Post by
skribs
While it was mentioned above how many classes can remove magic effects, also consider that paladin, shaman, and priest - while only being 3 classes - make up 75% of the healers. That means that if you are going up against a team with a healer, there is a very good chance you can get dispelled.
This is very pertinant when talking about diseases. Yes, only 30% of the classes can dispel diseases. But that's 75% of the healers.
Post by
253557
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Post by
256079
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Post by
Burnbabe
I have made 2 unholy pvp talent builds that seem ok to me, but I would like your advise which 1 to pick.
1)
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jbZhg0zhZfMGhzfkMeqRfsu
Lichborne as it is handy for immunity against charm, fear, and sleep, others will miss you 25% more, and i heard you could heal yourself with DC, although I'm not sure of that.
As for Annihilation, you have 3% more chance to crit and your OB doesn't take away your diseases. I know that SS is relatively better then OB for unholy, but if you are up against clothies or warlocks with shadow damage absorbance on them, you can hurt them good.
2)
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=jfVMRcZZfMGhzfkMeqRfku
This build is practically the same in the unholy part, except 2 points less in WP, used in imp Rune Tap.
please respond with (good) comments.
Post by
256079
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Post by
Kurtosis
Does Scourge Strike reduce weapon damage to 60% and convert it to shadow damage, or does it do 100% weapon damage with 60% as Shadow and the remaining 40% as physical?
Post by
Burnbabe
Ty for the reply spanky, but I think I will be using my first specc, for I will mainly pvp with my dk, so both bg and arena, where control is rather important, because if u can't touch your enemy, your extra dmg is pretty much useless.
As for Night of the dead, it will be usefull in bg's, because there you and your ghoul will die a number of times.
And gargoyle comes in handy when you got a lot of RP and there is a kiter on your neck. It will damage him already while u get closer to him.
Post by
Xepp
Skribs, what do you think of this post I found on mmo-champion forum.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=29348.0
It seems to me he got a point, what do u think?
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight=2305001500000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000230232300121112253151023103150&glyph=110917050306
This is my preferred build by far, mainly to play 2v2 with a healer. My plan is to either use a priest or a paladin, priest will be best at higher skill levels.
If I may critique your build.. it's all wrong.
Blade Barrier is a waste of points compared to what else we can get on first tier blood. We don't need defence against melee at all.
It's a matter of preference, 2v2 with a healer I wouldn't go further into blood than Rune Tap, but other comps I would probably go down to mark of blood.
No points in Frost for an Unholy build. If the enemy is wanting to kite us they'll manage it if our frost runes and deathgrip are on cooldown, Toughness makes no difference to that.
Take Corpse Explosion. I can't stress quite how amazing it is when used properly. If you didn't know, it can be cast on your own ghoul to make it explode for an extra 3k minimum burst, and as Ghouls are so easy to resummon it can be done a lot.
Also it's lulz in a match to kersplode someone once you kill them.
One point in Blood caked blade only so I can get to the next tier, it's really not much damage and it's uncontrollable, waste of talents.
It's a toss up whether you put points in Dirge or more into Impurity. Personally I prefer Dirge so I always have enough to DC spam heal my pet when it's important. Impurity ain't that much damage.
Again though, for a double dps team Dirge may be a waste.
You don't have Master of Ghouls...
Do you not like a 3 second stun every 20 seconds, pretty nice auto attack damage, leap to catch and stun those pesky runners, and of course the ever pro Corpse Explosion Jihad?
In short, it's too good to miss. Really.
Unholy Aura is a complete waste of 2 points. It is NEVER (i repeat, NEVER) worth it to switch into Blood Presence. I know a lot of talk has been going on about it but really, it's such a waste to do so.
Any team-mate you are with will not benefit from the aura, if you are double melee, your target will be snared all the time and your team-mate will be able to charge or ShS to the target anyway, ret paladins have their own 15% so a waste there again.
If you team with a healer, the 15% will not help them. CoI, Death Grip, DnD etc. will be MORE than enough. Deathknights are by far the best peeling class in the game.
You skipped Ghoul talents, so no Night of the Dead in your build.
If however I have convinced you to spend points on your ghoul (which you should) then NotD is amazing. As long as you're fighting, you can summon it instantly.
It's not very clear on the tooltip, but NotD allows you toreduce the CD of Raise Dead by 30 second EVERY SINGLE SCOURGE STRIKE AND PLAGUE STRIKE. This means basically 10 strikes and your CD is gone!
10 strikes that use an unholy rune = 2 every 10 seconds = 50 seconds of fighting for you to get a new ghoul, this is not counting the time that Raise Dead has cooled down of it's own accord.
Jihad burst every 50 seconds and instantly summon a new ghoul.
3/3 Ebon Plague as it's a good damage boost for you and especially casters on your team, and then 5/5 Rage of Rivendare because it's such an excellent damage boost, it really really really is.
Bone Shield is imo a waste of a major glyph because there are just so many other great ones available.
Icebound Fortitude is an absolutel necessity, really you can't play without it against a good rogue and it really messes up paladins.
Death and Decay... GET THIS GLYPH. That's pretty much how simple it is. 20% chance for a 2 second horror effect on an ability that procs every single second. Rogues just die.
Scourge Strike isn't that great, I just have it so I can keep spending runes on SS rather than refreshing diseases, it's a nice damage boost in that way and to me worth more than other major glyphs.
Post by
256079
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Post by
Xepp
Xepp, some great points. I had been contemplating moving the three points I have in necrosis to put into corpse explosion and NotD. The dmg they do has a modifier of attack power so the more attack power the more dmage the explosions do. The glyph of D&D I hadn't really thought about it having a chance to proc with every tick. If that is the case then it is possibly the single most valuable PvP glyph.
Yeah, maybe its not such a bad idea to drop my glyph of bone shield for D&D. Its to often I run into 5-10 enemys in Strand of the Ancient. D&D would be kind of fun to use there.. :) and CE :D
I have had no survivability issues yet with NO points in blood but if i do, i may rethink. I use DS with a glyph and can heal 4.8k per strike and keep RP topped off, which is more or less easy to keep full, even using UB and DC to heal my ghoul.
TYVM for the post
There are so many nice abilitys and so few talent points.. sucks! :) I got like 24p in blood because I imagine that rune tap is very nice.. but when I think about it, maybe I dont use it that much.
Post by
132063
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Post by
dronne25
Let's see...
Rogues can cloak it.
Paladins can cleanse it.
Resto shamans can cleanse it.
Priests can dispel it.
Mages can iceblock it (not likely that they would, but they -could- if they wanted)
Warlocks can have their puppy eat it
Which just leaves druids, hunters, warriors and DKs who can't remove it (and hunters can remove it from their pet if specced for it). I think you'll find it is indeed not as useful and awe inspiring as you're claiming.
Again, I'm not saying it's a wasted talent. I'm saying it's very situational and would need careful timing.
quote]
Let's see...
Rogues can cloak it.
Paladins can cleanse it.
Resto shamans can cleanse it.
Priests can dispel it.
Mages can iceblock it (not likely that they would, but they -could- if they wanted)
Warlocks can have their puppy eat it
Which just leaves druids, hunters, warriors and DKs who can't remove it (and hunters can remove it from their pet if specced for it). I think you'll find it is indeed not as useful and awe inspiring as you're claiming.
Again, I'm not saying it's a wasted talent. I'm saying it's very situational and would need careful timing.
Rogues can't cloak MoB. Its four like I said, not counting a mage who ice-blocked it (I don’t ever see that happening). Only two will definitely be able to knock it out - paladin and priest. A shaman has to be a certain spec, and at 80 fel puppy is not the only option for a lock to have out. Another way of looking at it is that is 10 total specs out of 30 will be able to dispel, and that’s being generous counting all specs of a warlock.
If you're using it in a standard 21/0/50 unholy build, you will have 30% dispel resist from virulence.
Any long CD ability has to be timed and used situationally.
Once again, my point, which still is yet to be addressed by anything you've said, and which I’m repeating again, is that it is well worth it to give up 3 random points in unholy from for example RoR to get MoB, especially for small bracket arenas. I.E. since you’re having trouble getting this idea: 21/0/50 is a much more useful unholy build, in more situations than any of the unholy shells/builds suggested elsewhere in this post. I linked the cookie-cutter version in my last post. My second point is that mark is really strong against 2-dps teams. Most successful 2dps teams include a rogue for control/MS. Most of the other classes that fit into this matrix (mage, boomkin, 2x rogue, retadin) do not have dispelling capacity. Only retadin, and a retadin isn't going to have the mana to be wasting spamming cleanse to get off MoB that is dispel resistant, especially if you have any other debuffs on the target. Against healer/dps, usually the healer as you mentioned will usually have a dispel - this is when you sit on the healer hard enough so that he does not have the GCDs to waste spam-cleansing his partner. You should be sitting on the healer a lot in S5 anyway especially at the start when no one has any resilience to stack. (Not to go off on a tangent but has anyone in this thread tried playing a pvp healer at 80 yet? Until resilience proliferates more (and its not possible to hit the cap at all until probably early S7 late S6) I wouldn’t worry so much about dispelling of diseases/magic effects – their GCDs are going to be needed for spam-healing – although this makes virulence even more attractive)). And god knows between a combination of (not all specs have all these talents obviously) ghoul stun or HC, DnD glyph, mind freeze, strangulate and anything your partner has its not hard to lock out said shaman/paladin from knocking off MoB for at least long enough to get some good value out of it.
Anyway, if you want to constructively address either of those points feel free. Otherwise, please refrain from trolling my posts with conclusory, unsupported assertions like "Its not," and incorrect information, especially when the characters linked in your sig, who combined do not have a single piece of anything remotely requiring an arena rating, demonstrate that you have zero experience at a high level of arena play (yeah and don’t tell me its in the bank, because even s2 would be better than any of the PvE gear you are wearing). Its hard for me to believe that you have much basis to make statements like “most competent arena players would…” when you have never been above the 1400s. I’m not knocking your accomplishments or holding mine over you – I’m just saying that your credibility level is pretty low at the start so you should try to support what you say with some form of argument or reasoning and with examples, in addition to actually responding to the posts you reply to.
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