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Live
PTR
10.2.5
PTR
10.2.6
Impale for protection
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Post by
90927
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Post by
41852
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Post by
33153
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Post by
Zakkhar
It's pretty simple: no Imp tc = 10% more damage taken. Would you ever tank in battlestance? Probably not
Battle stance is a bit different cause it also dumps the threat pretty much (80% in b.stance, 145% in tallented defensive stance).
The 10% mitigation isnt a big deal in stances. The threat is.
Let him test for himself. I know plenty of tanks who dont use TC/Demo at all and are just fine.
Post by
33153
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Post by
Zakkhar
I doubt that us wrting it at forums about its 100% a must will force them to use anything. Just fine was sort of a metaphore as well.
Well what to expect when Lylelovett, the beloved Project Lore tank doesnt use them? He TCs from time to time, but never seen him Demo.
What i am trying to imply here is that we can write things, people can show other things in videos, but in the end players will do whatever they think is right. Let them get to it eventually.
If they dont try to improve i doubt we can change their attitude.
Let them be bad, there will always bea place for developing tanks (like myself).
Btw. I just figured out another Impale build on the matter of gain per talent point and what i am using the most.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LAM0zbZhLZVItrh0zibIzsGo
It lacks Puncture, but i feel Anger Management compensates for it (i dont spam Devastate as much as i used to). Each 5s its Revenge there, and each 6s a Shield Slam. I feel like Devastate became a GCD filler. It lacks Vigilance because being a threat concentrated tank i dont need it, and most of the times forget to use it anyway. I feel that Toughness doesnt scale well in gain per talent point, thats why i cut a bit there.
The other idea would be getting it out of the build at all, and picking full Puncture instead.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LAM0zbZhLZVItr0czibIzsGo
I think we should point out which talents are awesome in both the gain and the gain per talent point matter to prioritise correctly.
I start with most obvious avoidance talents:
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=16466
and
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12753
. Both scale very well per point and both offer a great gain for any tank, the Deflection is slightly better though due to known sucky scaling of parry point per parry rating in comparison to dodge point per dodge rating.
And now a Mitigation talent.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12727
Due to the second aspect of it worth maxing, but is is great enough to put it in the quotation Deflection > Anticipation > Shield Specialization (or should we add >> between dodge and this). Due to the aspects of Shield Block ability the rage gains on each blocks are hard to ignore.
Another Mitigation talent (and another combined with threat boost):
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12666
, great scaling (notice the 2/3 -> 3/3 jump), 10% aoe mitigation for 30s, damage gain, rage reduce. Is there anything more worth adding to this talent? Apart from aoe silence i dont see any. Great talent and ability. Btw, i still dunno, does it actually work on spellcasters as well? I used to act like it was, but kinda not sure now.
Lets try something else.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12799
. I used to not pick this talent. It had only 50% for stun at that time and skill itself did fixed and kinda low damage. Atm the skill is a damage/threat king (along with boosted SS, but SS is much worse ragewise) and 20% increase per 2 points is awesome threat gain. Also 50% on 3s stun each 5s is great in terms of defence on thrash.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12975
- used to not pick this pre-3.0 either. It had 8 min cd at that time and i felt i dont have a great use for it due to 30 min cd on other last resort skill Shield Wall. But it has now 5 min cd and they can be used both for better results. I can find uses for it in grinding, pve and pvp. Great gain per talent point.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=29599
- another godly scaling, awesome gain ability. 30% SBV bonus for 2 talent points would be enough to make it king. But it also reduces the cd on
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=2565
from 60s to 40s. Another 30% gain. (33 actually).
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12958
- used to not pick this pre-3.0. had only silence effect on it (the skill itself silenced, but only on interrupts). It has a slight shield slam damage bonus on it now. Just 2 talent points. Picked due to maxing shield slam damage. I find a silence nice as well. Especially due to the fact you can do this ranged now. You cant imagine how i cursed on lack of ranged silence.
Imagine you got a caster near another group. You cant melee it, or you agro all. You cant pull it cause it chain casts. %$&#
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=16542
- crappy scaling 2% per point. But it affects all attacks.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12856
- would say crappy scaling (crappier than the talent above), but not so convinced after you notice the tank gear doesnt have much crit on it. Worth getting, but lack of full 5/5 wont kill you.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=61222
- it gives a tiny amount and has a crappy scaling. Lets say an ordinary geared warr tank got 22k armor, 3 points in this talent are worth raw 122 AP increase. Depends on your current AP. But considering all your skills scale well with AP and the talent is clearly made for prots, might take it. STR is far superior to AP anyway.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=29594
- used to not take it pre 3.0, had only 6% decrease at that time. The enrage negates the handicap for defensive stance and allows you to use
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=55694
without problems. Only 2 points for all that? Wow. Awesome gain per point.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=29144
- used to increase STR by 10% and STA by 5% for 5 points. But just this. Now its combined with old
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12789
. So basically you got 8 points worth talent pre-3.0 into 3 talent points past 3.0. Do i have to say it scales awesome?
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=46949
- a pure arena talent, same with the glyph
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43419
.
Post by
90927
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33153
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Post by
Zakkhar
I dont use it for anything (yet). I lack wotlk totally and hoped to make a few month break from wow at all. But this game is so addictive i cant stop thinking/forums browsing.
As for effective health. You are wrong. There is a talent that screams effective health much louder. (Imp Thunderclap) And its just 3 points per 10% increase. I find 5 points too much in comparison to that, dont you?
It enhances Armored to teeth by 10% of nothing. 12 AP. For 5 talent points. A big deal.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12764
- 10% more time to stand there without any healing, its nice, but doesnt scale good. 2% per talent point is a bit expensive. The other ability is useless outside pvp, especially considering charge/intervene/intercept dispell all movement imparing effects instantly.
As pointed above the already described
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12666
talent is far superior to this one at all aspects.
I pass. There are many better scaling abilities than this (more gain for less talent points).
I remember finally getting anger management as fury tank (long ago, still leveling to 70). Boy, i had so much additional rage to burn. Havent tested with/without yet. Used 12/5/44 build before 3.0. Atm dont have it. Reducing out of combat rage decay, along with Charge/Zerker Rage/Blood Rage usable in Def stance is great. Never too much rage. Its just 1 talent point.
Used to have 3/3 Tactical Mastery as well. I often find myself in swaping a stance to zerker to intercept and not able to do it cause not enough rage. That sucks. I finally noticed the tooltip on
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12678
. Up to. Sucks.
I know Lyle is a bad tank.
"Situational awareness of a muppet." Made me laugh. But its so true. It wasnt an example of good tank. Added some sarcasm to it and made him and overadvertised tank. Overknown.
I just say he is going just fine (which means they dont repeteadly wipe for some reason) at least thats what it looks like... I guess its the MD spam and exaggerated cc that makes him look so good.
The problem is many newbie tanks will try to be like him not like (pick any good known tank).
Post by
90927
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Post by
41852
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Post by
Sakkura
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=61222
- it gives a tiny amount and has a crappy scaling. Lets say an ordinary geared warr tank got 22k armor, 3 points in this talent are worth raw 122 AP increase. Depends on your current AP. But considering all your skills scale well with AP and the talent is clearly made for prots, might take it. STR is far superior to AP anyway.
Your math seems to be wrong. At 22k armor, 3 points give you 3 * 22000 / 180 = 367 AP. I have around 25-26k armor when raid buffed, so i get 417-433 AP from the talent, which is awesome. It is far better than cruelty, even if you have impale. And it scales with gear.
Post by
Sakkura
To the best of my knowledge, only one TC can be applied at any given time, so it is not vital to the state that every Prot Warrior have it, if we're talking about raid applications.
You still need improved thunderclap for AoE tanking - 30% is not trivial. Besides, you don't have to drop improved thunderclap to get impale, as I have repeated over and over in this thread. You lose NO survivability talents by going for impale - what you lose are other DPS/TPS talents.
Post by
41852
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Post by
33153
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Post by
Sakkura
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12764
- 10% more time to stand there without any healing, its nice, but doesnt scale good. 2% per talent point is a bit expensive. The other ability is useless outside pvp, especially considering charge/intervene/intercept dispell all movement imparing effects instantly.
As pointed above the already described
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12666
talent is far superior to this one at all aspects.
I pass. There are many better scaling abilities than this (more gain for less talent points).
It scales well and is one of the strongest talents in the protection tree. Skipping it is ridiculous.
Lets say you have 20k armor without it - 5/5 will then bring you to 22k armor. Your damage taken from raid bosses goes from 1 - (20000 / (467.5 * 83 + 20000 - 22167.5)) = 45.41% to 1 - (22000 / (467.5 * 83 + 22000 - 22167.5)) = 43.06%, which is over 5% less damage taken. The effect on time to live is even greater. And the talent only gets better as you get more armor, as long as you don't reach the armor cap.
Post by
33153
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Post by
Sakkura
Unfortunately WWS wasn't working right last time I went Naxx, so I have no solid numbers yet. In any case, threat was a non-issue both with my previous 5/8/58 build and my current impale build. For some weird reason hunter pets were the ones coming closest to me on threat, as long as they weren't dying.
Post by
Sakkura
also, ciderhelm runs with an interesting build that takes deepwounds instead of focused rage (
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LAM00fZhbZVItrx0zidczsGo
from
http://www.quickarmory.com/?r=Earthen%20Ring&n=Ciderhelm
)
My guess is thats very specific for his raid progression.
Hmm... Deep wounds scales off weapon damage, so a fast tanking weapon would give some relatively meh Deep wounds damage. Plus you sort of run out of points for important prot talents as well as cruelty (which is an extra important talent when you have impale, since they synergize).
Maybe he has it for testing purposes. I know I had some weird builds in the beta once in a while.
Post by
33153
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