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The Future of Lordaeron
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Post by
oneforthemoney
it doesn't matter if its new or old, neutral is neutral. I find it highly hypocritical to say "WE R NEUTRALZ" *Secretly aid alliance*
America did the same thing in World War I. It's how war goes.
Again the double-standard. If it was horde doing the same, everyone would be flaring up in anger, but if its the alliance doing it, "that's how war goes"
but hey, let the horde pull a brilliant military tactic and sudenly they're monsters, they have no honor, they deserve to be enslaved again, blah blah blah.
Morality asides, Theramoore was nothing more than a stroke of genius. Remove one major staging point of alliance military prowess, remove their best generals and upper echelon leadership, and NOT KILL A SINGLE CIVILIAN in the process.
Pure genius. But ask any joe what they feel about thearmoore and they're all like "WORST.CRIME.EVER"
Bet you if the alliance pulled a reverse theramoore on the horde, it would be white-washed with "that's war"
Only thanks to Baine's warning. Had he not done so, then the bomb would have been dropped on all those civilians there. Them being absent had not been an intentional part of the Horde's 'pure genius'. It was an accident, one which Garrosh did not approve of, and since his dropping a weapon of mass destruction on the settlement was on the works from the beginning, it is only thanks to the Horde's own infighting that everyone who lived in Theramore did not die.
And actually, it's the contrary. No one approved of the same tactic being used by the Alliance, evinced when Jaina wanted to flood Orgrimmar with a tidal wave and no one approved of it. The lack of civilian deaths in Theramore was not due to military genius, and to call it such belittles Baine's contribution.
Post by
Skreeran
You suprise me Rankkor. I saw someone defending Theramore and figured that it must have been a misquote.
Post by
Rankkor
it doesn't matter if its new or old, neutral is neutral. I find it highly hypocritical to say "WE R NEUTRALZ" *Secretly aid alliance*
America did the same thing in World War I. It's how war goes.
Again the double-standard. If it was horde doing the same, everyone would be flaring up in anger, but if its the alliance doing it, "that's how war goes"
but hey, let the horde pull a brilliant military tactic and sudenly they're monsters, they have no honor, they deserve to be enslaved again, blah blah blah.
Morality asides, Theramoore was nothing more than a stroke of genius. Remove one major staging point of alliance military prowess, remove their best generals and upper echelon leadership, and NOT KILL A SINGLE CIVILIAN in the process.
Pure genius. But ask any joe what they feel about thearmoore and they're all like "WORST.CRIME.EVER"
Bet you if the alliance pulled a reverse theramoore on the horde, it would be white-washed with "that's war"
Only thanks to Baine's warning. Had he not done so, then the bomb would have been dropped on all those civilians there.
Nope. Because garrosh didn't dropped the bomb at the very start of the battle, he let it drag on for days to attract as many alliance generals into one spot as he could and THEN he dropped it. Also notice how he never established a blockade on the city, the back yard into the ocean was wide open for anyone who wanted to leave. So, ample days to evacuate civilians and non-essential personnel, and an ample wide gap to do so.
Baine's warning wasn't even needed, he only sent it because he didn't knew what garrosh's plan was, he (garrosh) kept everyone in the dark, so baine played the "better safe than sorry" approach and warned them of the impeding attack.
But had he not done so, the civilians would had still been given ample time to evacuate considering how long garrosh dragged the whole thing out and how the city was never surrounded or blockaded.
You suprise me Rankkor. I saw someone defending Theramore and figured that it must have been a misquote.
Don't get me wrong, I still HATE the attack on theramoore, but from a pragmatic, military point of view, it was a good move, and well justified. The city was more than asking for it after attacking the horde on three different fronts.
Post by
Skreeran
But I blame Garrosh for the escalation of the War into Total War. Prior to Theramore, the Alliance had been fighting a mostly civilized war of armies fighting armies. Garrosh, however, is fighting a total war of extermination, and that only escalates the conflict.
Post by
oneforthemoney
it doesn't matter if its new or old, neutral is neutral. I find it highly hypocritical to say "WE R NEUTRALZ" *Secretly aid alliance*
America did the same thing in World War I. It's how war goes.
Again the double-standard. If it was horde doing the same, everyone would be flaring up in anger, but if its the alliance doing it, "that's how war goes"
but hey, let the horde pull a brilliant military tactic and sudenly they're monsters, they have no honor, they deserve to be enslaved again, blah blah blah.
Morality asides, Theramoore was nothing more than a stroke of genius. Remove one major staging point of alliance military prowess, remove their best generals and upper echelon leadership, and NOT KILL A SINGLE CIVILIAN in the process.
Pure genius. But ask any joe what they feel about thearmoore and they're all like "WORST.CRIME.EVER"
Bet you if the alliance pulled a reverse theramoore on the horde, it would be white-washed with "that's war"
Only thanks to Baine's warning. Had he not done so, then the bomb would have been dropped on all those civilians there.
Nope. Because garrosh didn't dropped the bomb at the very start of the battle, he let it drag on for days to attract as many alliance generals into one spot as he could and THEN he dropped it. Also notice how he never established a blockade on the city, the back yard into the ocean was wide open for anyone who wanted to leave. So, ample days to evacuate civilians and non-essential personnel, and an ample wide gap to do so.
I believe the presence of krakens and airships (like the one which dropped said bomb) somewhat negates that.
And really Rankorr, if the only defense offered for the Horde not being dishonorable in these instances is that it is objectively a good move, then that defeats the whole premise of the argument. Working from an objective standpoint, absolutely everything Garrosh and Sylvanas are doing is right, and will bring them victory quickly. But that's not the point. The point is that these things are wrong from a honourable and moral perspective, which is where people have problems. Dropping a weapon of mass destruction on a city is wrong. Using biological weapons on a massive scale is wrong. Using blood elves to steal weapons and compromising their entire faction is wrong. These things are wrong because they don't give people a chance to defend themselves, and the other side has no choice but to escalate accordingly.
Post by
Rankkor
it doesn't matter if its new or old, neutral is neutral. I find it highly hypocritical to say "WE R NEUTRALZ" *Secretly aid alliance*
America did the same thing in World War I. It's how war goes.
Again the double-standard. If it was horde doing the same, everyone would be flaring up in anger, but if its the alliance doing it, "that's how war goes"
but hey, let the horde pull a brilliant military tactic and sudenly they're monsters, they have no honor, they deserve to be enslaved again, blah blah blah.
Morality asides, Theramoore was nothing more than a stroke of genius. Remove one major staging point of alliance military prowess, remove their best generals and upper echelon leadership, and NOT KILL A SINGLE CIVILIAN in the process.
Pure genius. But ask any joe what they feel about thearmoore and they're all like "WORST.CRIME.EVER"
Bet you if the alliance pulled a reverse theramoore on the horde, it would be white-washed with "that's war"
Only thanks to Baine's warning. Had he not done so, then the bomb would have been dropped on all those civilians there.
Nope. Because garrosh didn't dropped the bomb at the very start of the battle, he let it drag on for days to attract as many alliance generals into one spot as he could and THEN he dropped it. Also notice how he never established a blockade on the city, the back yard into the ocean was wide open for anyone who wanted to leave. So, ample days to evacuate civilians and non-essential personnel, and an ample wide gap to do so.
And really Rankorr, if the only defense offered for the Horde not being dishonorable in these instances is that it is objectively a good move, then that defeats the whole premise of the argument. Working from an objective standpoint, absolutely everything Garrosh and Sylvanas are doing is right, and will bring them victory quickly. But that's not the point. The point is that these things are wrong from a honourable and moral perspective, which is where people have problems. Dropping a weapon of mass destruction on a city is wrong. Using biological weapons on a massive scale is wrong. Using blood elves to steal weapons and compromising their entire faction is wrong. These things are wrong because they don't give people a chance to defend themselves, and the other side has no choice but to escalate accordingly.
THANK YOU.
That is what I wanted you to say.
See? I never said that their actions were morally right, I said that from a military point of view, it made sense to do these things, as its a tactically good move. Even if its a morally wrong move.
THAT is how I feel about Taurajo and the alliance. Yes it was a tactically right decision to attack that place,, but it was a morally wrong thing to do.
And THAT is the double standard that annoys and upsets me. When the horde is pragmatic militarily and uses morally questionable tactics to bring swift and decisive victory, everyone frowns and calls them mosnters, and villains. But when the alliance does the exact same thing, its handwaved and white-washed as "hey, that's war"
That's not really fair mon.
I believe the presence of krakens and airships (like the one which dropped said bomb) somewhat negates that.
The krakens were in northwatch hold, not theramoore. And "Airships"? plural? dude, it was a single zeppeling, carring the bomb. He didn't wanted to draw attention to it by bringing a large air fleet, as that would force the alliance to bring their own airships, so he brought the bomb discreetly via a single zepelling.
Post by
oneforthemoney
Naturally.
The arguments in this thread have way of becoming derailed quite quickly until no one really knows what they're arguing about. As for Taurjo, I don't think it was morally wrong to do so, but wrong in the way they went about it. But then Southshore entered into it and the argument became which was more wrong, then somehow 4dehorde became convinced we were saying the Alliance is without sin, and ten pages later here we are. I think that idea of the Horde being the evil ones is that under Garrosh, they tend to do these sorts of things first, then the Alliance escalates accordingly, and so on.
The only real way to tell which side is morally better would be to see what happens after Garrosh is deposed, and which direction the two sides go in. Garrosh being what much of this can be set at the feet of makes the arguments less that the Horde is evil and more that those who follow him are.
Post by
Rankkor
Fair enough.
And now a little off-topic epiphany I had while reading
this.
Bear in mind that this is no random wiki that any schmuck can edit, this is the official website, what is written there is canon and is law.
It made me think of something (Which is pure speculation BTW).
Could it be possible that garrosh KNEW of the secret negotiations that Lor'themar was doing to rejoin the alliance? because then it would make a lot more sense that Fanlyr left incriminating evidence behind for Jaina to find. That way garrosh kills 2 birds with 1 stone. He gets to steal the bell, and at the same time, prevent the blood elves from leaving the horde.
Its just a thought, I don't necessarily think that's what happened, just a simple random thought that popped into my head :P
Post by
Adamsm
If Garrosh didn't, it was fairly certain that Malkorok did; that orc is scary smart at how he manipulates things to make certain that the orcs come out on top.
Post by
oneforthemoney
And now a little off-topic epiphany I had while reading
this.
Bear in mind that this is no random wiki that any schmuck can edit, this is the official website, what is written there is canon and is law.
It made me think of something (Which is pure speculation BTW).
Could it be possible that garrosh KNEW of the secret negotiations that Lor'themar was doing to rejoin the alliance? because then it would make a lot more sense that Fanlyr left incriminating evidence behind for Jaina to find. That way garrosh kills 2 birds with 1 stone. He gets to steal the bell, and at the same time, prevent the blood elves from leaving the horde.
Its just a thought, I don't necessarily think that's what happened, just a simple random thought that popped into my head :P
Hmm...Could be. But on the other hand, it might have been almost too perfect for Garrosh to do it intentionally.
Post by
Rankkor
And now a little off-topic epiphany I had while reading
this.
Bear in mind that this is no random wiki that any schmuck can edit, this is the official website, what is written there is canon and is law.
It made me think of something (Which is pure speculation BTW).
Could it be possible that garrosh KNEW of the secret negotiations that Lor'themar was doing to rejoin the alliance? because then it would make a lot more sense that Fanlyr left incriminating evidence behind for Jaina to find. That way garrosh kills 2 birds with 1 stone. He gets to steal the bell, and at the same time, prevent the blood elves from leaving the horde.
Its just a thought, I don't necessarily think that's what happened, just a simple random thought that popped into my head :P
Hmm...Could be. But on the other hand, it might have been almost too perfect for Garrosh to do it intentionally.
Entirely possible that is what Adamsm said. Malkorok is SCARILY GOOD at manipulating others. He's a magnificent bastard. And I fully believe him to be smart and cunning enough to set that up.
Post by
Adamsm
I will admit, all the crap in Tides of War, at least we got one incredible character; hate him all you want, but Malkorok is well written.
Post by
4dehorde
Horde Agression and Greed are the catalyst that creates the Alliance.
And yet it was the Alliance that started the war in the first place. And FYI, What you call "Horde Aggression" is mostly the Old Horde, in the First and Second Wars. The New Horde cannot be blamed for such actions. Also, although this has already been pointed out, the blood elves we see on Azuremyst and Bloodmyst Isles are NOT Horde. They are with Kael'thas and the Legion. Check up on your lore.
The city was more than asking for it after attacking the horde on three different fronts.
THANK YOU! While tragic, it was certainly not unjustified.
then somehow 4dehorde became convinced we were saying the Alliance is without sin
That's because some of you, particularly Platypus, were.
Post by
Lordplatypus
And yet it was the Alliance that started the war in the first place. And FYI, What you call "Horde Aggression" is mostly the Old Horde, in the First and Second Wars. The New Horde cannot be blamed for such actions. Also, although this has already been pointed out, the blood elves we see on Azuremyst and Bloodmyst Isles are NOT Horde. They are with Kael'thas and the Legion. Check up on your lore.
Was it?
The horde attacked the Alliance in every single situation.
The Horde stabed the alliance in the back countless times from vanilla all the way to now while the alliance was focused on saving the world.
Post by
Snake387
*Sighs*
Here we go again...
Post by
Rankkor
And yet it was the Alliance that started the war in the first place. And FYI, What you call "Horde Aggression" is mostly the Old Horde, in the First and Second Wars. The New Horde cannot be blamed for such actions. Also, although this has already been pointed out, the blood elves we see on Azuremyst and Bloodmyst Isles are NOT Horde. They are with Kael'thas and the Legion. Check up on your lore.
Was it?
The horde attacked the Alliance in every single situation.
uh-huh.
Orcs leave the eastern kingdoms because they wanted to avoid war with the alliance. Jaina's dad followed them with an armada and butchered everyone in razor hill.
Trolls had never even had a problem with the alliance. Jaina's dad attacked them.
Tauren had never even had a problem with the alliance. Dwarves attacked them unprovoked cuz they wanted relics.
Frostwolves had never even had a problem with the alliance. Dwarves attacked them for relics.
Goblins never had a problem with the alliance. Alliance Black Ops team attacked them unprovoked.
Blood Elves tried to rejoin the alliance. Alliance stabbed them in the back by leading a purge of their citizens in dalaran for no reason.
Orcs tried to negotiate with humans to get wood the civilized way. Human king backed out because he's a moron.
What were you saying about the horde being the aggressors?
The Horde stabed the alliance in the back countless times from vanilla all the way to now
Alliance and Horde worked together in the might of Kalimdor. There was not a single problem between each other.
Alliance and Horde worked together in the opening of the dark portal. There was not a single problem between each other.
Alliance and Horde worked together in the Stair of Destiny. There was not a single problem between each other.
Alliance and Horde worked together on Quel'danas. There was not a single problem between each other.
*Cue Northrend campaign*
While Horde soldiers captured alliance prisoners,
and returned them unharmed
, the alliance attacked the horde unprovoked by
rerouting a tribe of Magnataurs
into a horde settlement, leading to the deaths of many elderly including a venerable shaman, a religious leader.
Horde forces land first in Howling Fjord, establishing Vengeance's Landing, Alliance fleet attacked them. Unprovoked.
Horde forces sign a peace treaty with the alliance, Alliance forces attacked them
Unprovoked BEFORE THE CATACLYSM,
breaking the peace treaty, and restarting the war just for pure bigotry alone.
Blood Elves try to negotiate peace by rejoining the alliance, Alliance responds by
Staging a genocide.
What were you saying about backstabbings?
while the alliance was focused on saving the world.
Uh-huh, suuuuuuuuure because the horde had absolutely NOTHING to do with that.
Ohh wait.
Post by
Stabhorn
Alliance and Horde worked together in the might of Kalimdor. There was not a single problem between each other.
Alliance and Horde worked together in the opening of the dark portal. There was not a single problem between each other.
Alliance and Horde worked together in the Stair of Destiny. There was not a single problem between each other.
Alliance and Horde worked together on Quel'danas. There was not a single problem between each other.
Also they worked together at the Gates of Ahn'qiraj.
Post by
Rankkor
Alliance and Horde worked together in the might of Kalimdor. There was not a single problem between each other.
Alliance and Horde worked together in the opening of the dark portal. There was not a single problem between each other.
Alliance and Horde worked together in the Stair of Destiny. There was not a single problem between each other.
Alliance and Horde worked together on Quel'danas. There was not a single problem between each other.
Also they worked together at the Gates of Ahn'qiraj.
hmmm yo' that's what I meant by
Might of Kalimdor
Post by
Stabhorn
Alliance and Horde worked together in the might of Kalimdor. There was not a single problem between each other.
Alliance and Horde worked together in the opening of the dark portal. There was not a single problem between each other.
Alliance and Horde worked together in the Stair of Destiny. There was not a single problem between each other.
Alliance and Horde worked together on Quel'danas. There was not a single problem between each other.
Also they worked together at the Gates of Ahn'qiraj.
hmmm yo' that's what I meant by
Might of Kalimdor
ah yes...
Post by
morginar
I thought that you where going to point out a dwarf and some night elf running around killing blood elves, sabotaging arcane sanctums and spionage in the high kingdom when the Sin'dorei where neutral.
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