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Do you believe in God?
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Post by
Gone
Yes, but that assumes that the person doing it out of the goodness of their heart finds the positive feelings they get as to be enough motivation to do good, instead of just seeing it as a bonus. I really don't believe that when I do something nice for someone I deem worthy of kindness, that I'm doing it for the good feeling I get. No, I feel I do it because I believe they deserve it, the good feeling is just a bonus. So I disagree with the "there is no unselfish act" theory.
Just for the sake of argument, give me an example of such a kindness you do with completely unselfish motives.
Post by
MyTie
I would say that a Christian doing a good dead because he thinks God will look favorably upon it is being more selfish than a person who does a good dead just out of the goodness of his heart, because the second person is still doing it for self serving reasons.
Christians are taught to love good, with the reminder that good has its rewards, some of which are in the afterlife. We aren't taught to do stuff on earth so we can tally up our chocolate treats on the other side. The cynicism of that point of view just paints a very misunderstood view of Christianity.
Post by
MyTie
Just for the sake of argument, give me an example of such a kindness you do with completely unselfish motives.
I know it wasn't directed at me, but I'll answer. I don't want to toot my own horn or something, because I do like to act in a kind manner, so I've chosen a pretty benign incident purposefully. This isn't a reflection of some kind of standard of good deeds, or something worthy of high praise, so don't mock me as if I am putting it forward to be:
The other day I saw an old man stocking shelves at wal mart. It was his job. He seemed to be having a hard time with it. Later, a couple of aisles down, I took a jar of peanut butter off a high shelf. I saw a large gap left, and a bunch of peanut butter shoved to the back. I've never worked as a grocery clerk, but it seemed like that old man stood a pretty good chance of having to stop and pull the peanut butters forward and orderly. So, I did it. I didn't get a warm fuzzy feeling. I doubt God has a list of every kind deed I've done that will determine the size of my mansion in heaven. I think God is a bit more pragmatic about the way He weights hearts. I was under no obligation to move the peanut butter. So, as I continued my shopping, I considered why I did what I did. I decided I did it because it's all the little things that make life grand. Sure, I don't think that because I organized peanut butter I'm some kind of Saint, or that proves what a Christian is, or something existential. It's just that my life, I try at least, to make it a compilation of acts that I would want to be on the receiving end of, and not because I get anything in the afterlife, nor because I enjoy it, but because good is something that is good, to me.
Do good for the sake of good, because good is something that is a goal. Make everything good, from the small things like organizing the peanut butter, all the way to spending the day lugging a friend's furniture around to help them move.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gone
I'm playing basketball in front of my driveway, In a nearby house, a kid accidentally kicks his ball that he was playing with a friend of his in his backyard out into the street, it goes a very long distance. He would have to run a very long distance to get it back, it would be a shorter distance for me to get it for him, but still far enough that it's an inconvenience for me. Despite this, I go get it for him. I do this because it would take him more physical effort and time. I do this because, for all I know,
this kid is a nice individual deserving of kindness
, and
I inherently care for all human beings I feel are good
, so for these 2 reasons, I went out of my way to get the boy his ball back. Not because I got a nice feeling from doing it, but because I deemed him worthy of kindness, and I care about him to some degree so I want to do something nice for him.
First of all I wan't to point out that most religious people feel the same way you do, and not because they think God wants them to feel so. the only situation in which religion really becomes an issue is if you have a person who just doesn't care about doing things for others. In which case I think a religious person who doesn't care and still does things for others because he thinks God wants him to, still has better motives than an Atheist who doesn't care and just does nothing for others because he has no motivation to. It's unfair to compare a Christian who doesn't care about others with a secular person who does.
Anyway on to your example. I highlighted the portions that I thought best illustrated your motives. Lets say a religious person saw the same ball go flying, and while he had no opinion about the matter, he knows that God loves everybody, and would wan't him to do his part in making life easier on his fellow man, so he goes and gets the ball as well.
What makes your motives more pure than his? You went after the ball because you made a judgement that people deserve kindness, and the religious person did the same thing because he thought it was what God would want him to do. The end result was the same, and both people are doing it for pretty decent reasons. I see no way that a person who lacks the same natural compassion that you might have, but makes up for it by doing what he thinks God wants him to do, has less inherent value in his motives than you.
If anything it probably takes more strength of character to go against ones natural instincts in service of doing the right thing, be it for God or otherwise.
Post by
Adamsm
You know, the old adage of 'Good done in the name of evil is still good, while evil done in the name of good is still evil' can even extend to comments like this.
Who cares if they are doing some good and they decide to dress it up in their religion; who does it hurt? Cause if they are making money to help out some family who lost their home or need assistance with something, I doubt that they are going to care if it's from Atheists, Agnostics or Fundies; all they know is that someone has helped them.
I live by the creed of 'do what you will and harm none'; when I do good for people, it's about helping them. If I get a reward cool, if not, also cool, cause I didn't do it expecting one. I do believe in Karma, and really, we should all be doing things to make the world a better place during our time here on Earth. If that means I do so by following the belief's of Wicca, that doesn't hurt a soul.
Go ahead and get angry at people who do horrible things in the name of religion, but don't get angry at people who are doing good things in the name of their personal God; they aren't hurting anyone, and you are just looking like the south end of a north bound donkey.
Post by
Magician22773
I would say that a Christian doing a good dead because he thinks God will look favorably upon it is being more selfish than a person who does a good dead just out of the goodness of his heart, because the second person is still doing it for self serving reasons.
Christians are taught to love good, with the reminder that good has its rewards, some of which are in the afterlife. We aren't taught to do stuff on earth so we can tally up our chocolate treats on the other side. The cynicism of that point of view just paints a very misunderstood view of Christianity.
More specifically, the Bible says:
" For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
We are specifically taught by the Bible that we
cannot
simply earn our way into Heaven, no matter how much good we do on Earth.
A Christian may feel compelled to do good, because the ultimate goal of a Christian is to try to live life in the manner of Christ, but we do not do good because we think that it is necessary for salvation.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
asakawa
@ofLegends, That looks like a version of Pascal's Wager to me and you can read a decent response to that in
this article
.
Further to the response given in that article though, I find Pascal's Wager rather unsavoury and unflattering for the deity in question. It assumes a lot of things about the god in question and what they want from humans such as self-interested worship is better than truthfully doing good in the world.
It also assumes that if there is a god then it's the one you place your bet on and not some other god who really doesn't like you worshipping the wrong one. What if it turned out there is a god but that is Zeus?
Another criticism I've seen of it is "
Like most arguments for the existence of God, it seems more about reassuring existing believers than converting non-believers.
" As a non-believer this really rings true. It simply assumes too much to be a compelling argument to make one live one's life differently.
Post by
asakawa
I'm not saying anything about proselytisation, just presenting a couple of the common responses to Pascal's Wager. In the line you quoted I'm really just meaning that from the point of view of someone with a faith in a specific god or church, it will inevitably feel more powerful because things like the assumption that the god on which the bet is placed is the
right
one aren't serious concerns to the believer.
edit: Regarding proselytisation though, Penn Jillette often says that he expects/welcomes people to try to convert or "save" him because if someone truly believes that he's going to hell and does nothing to prevent that then they clearly don't have much respect for his soul.
I'm not really sure how I feel about his point of view but I present it for general interest.(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##asakawa##DELIM##
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
gnomerdon
if thou cannot shath read, thouest art thou fond of the gray cherry trees of the north. when work is much needed shant or 3 rubles, then through lingering and meditation shall the book be opened to you, and the tree of life floweth thine veins with the wisdom of the most high upon the ruby mountain.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
asakawa
You realize he says that just to shake people up, don't you?
I think he really respects someone with strong convictions. I don't think it's purely showboating or attention seeking. I think he
is
trying to make a point when he talks about this view but I don't think that precludes it also being how he genuinely feels.
Since the subject came up I just wanted to present a view that I find interesting but it's probably not so interesting that we should get sidetracked by it. Especially as it's a bit daft of me to raise something that I'm not personally able to "defend" (not quite the right word but you know what I mean).
Post by
MyTie
pure gibberish to me.
Is it possible, that you are so anti-Christian biased, you cannot even allow yourself to critically analyze a Biblical verse that clearly talks about "good works", when discussing religious implications on "good works"?
Ok, wait a second... I kept reading....
It has nothing to do with a bias against christianity
lol. ok.
Moving on...if thou cannot shath read, thouest art thou fond of the gray cherry trees of the north. when work is much needed shant or 3 rubles, then through lingering and meditation shall the book be opened to you, and the tree of life floweth thine veins with the wisdom of the most high upon the ruby mountain.
You all know, over this thread, every single person that has a religious slanted bias has been respectful (albeit irritated in Magician's case). They have kept an open mind, tried to answer questions, provide passages from religious text, examples from life, and actively tried to participate in at least a productive manner. However, the other side of this thread has expressed hatred for the Christian God, called the religious texts we hold our lives to as "gibberish", and outright mocked the texts. When people go on and on about how closed minded, arrogant, and rude religious people are, I wonder if there is any self examination on their parts.
I've never once said that someone is "going to Hell", in any thread. I've never mocked anyone for their religious belief. I may have been matter of fact about what I believe, and stubborn at times, but I've never been insulting or rude when it comes to people's religions, and I've never gone "fire and brimstone" on anyone. That said, I cannot remember a religious thread where a participant has not belittled me, or mocked my belief. It's standard. Keep in mind, I'm not saying it should change. If you all want to mock me, and my belief, it's no skin off my nose. What DOES bother me, is the insistence that everyone is being perfectly polite and kosher, while taking an absolute !@#$ on what I believe, while at the same time every word I type is put under a microscope. I don't expect to be treated the same as everyone else. To ask for equality when a minority on this forum is to ask for the impossible. What I do ask is for these double standards to be acknowledged, or in the very least, not denied. I find it incredulous when someone compares my beliefs to Harry Potter, or pulls something like what face just did, and then turns around and explains to me how that is perfectly acceptable, while at the same time my posts must be wrapped in satin and scented of vanilla and sandalwood.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
I honestly hate your god for valid reasons
What DOES bother me, is the insistence that everyone is being perfectly polite and kosherIt's like... insulting to my intelligence. But, for the sake of the highly unlikely possibility that you are temporarily rendered unable to read long sentences, I'll reword the verse for you: For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."You can't get into heaven just by doing good stuff, so don't try. Sure, Christ told you to do good stuff, and you'd do it if you loved Him. But, you don't build admittance to heaven through being nice n' stuff.wowhead moderatorsFinally, I never said anything about the moderators. I'm talking about users like you. I doubt you'd take it kindly if I said something as narrow as "I hate atheism because it doesn't have any desire to do good stuff, but that's not insulting to you as an atheist at all". I'm sure you'd find that to be a bit of a contradiction.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
You were saying there was some sort of "double standard" on this forum in regards to religious vs non religious posters here, in favor of the non religious.
There is a social double standard here. I didn't mention moderators. I wasn't talking about moderators. You said moderators. I said nothing of the sort.
You're going to have to take my word that I was takling about what I was talking about, since my words didn't indicate otherwise. Much like that, I will just take your assertions at face value. Far be it from me to try to explain to you how you are thinking. I don't understand it, so I'm just going to stop trying to, and stop trying to explain the Bible to you. For whatever reason, you don't get it. So, fine. There's nowhere for us to go. Good day, sir.
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