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Could You Forgive Arthas?
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Post by
Adamsm
That's splitting hairs though; while it is for her sake, that means she won't treat her people like trash so they will end up better then they were before. The hows and the whys don't matter as much as the results in this case, which is that the Forsaken wouldn't be used as just weapons.
Post by
Rankkor
That's splitting hairs though; while it is for her sake, that means she won't treat her people like trash so they will end up better then they were before. The hows and the whys don't matter as much as the results in this case, which is that the Forsaken wouldn't be used as just weapons.
you're............ defending sylvannas? O_O
I swear to god this thread is getting crazier. At this point I'll be defending Varian if this keeps up.
Ok, so I made a mistake, it happens :P I'll have to read the leader short stories I'm still missing. /groans, its just that they're so frikking BORING. ='(
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Not defending exactly, just saying her motivations while still selfish, are doing more good for her people this time around.
Post by
Lordplatypus
I swear to god this thread is getting crazier. At this point I'll be defending Varian if this keeps up.
It's arthas, last tread on arthas had rank agree with me.
What the hell is the lich king up to?
Anyway, slyvannas just learnt a new lesson.
Pick up reusable arrows.
Post by
Skreeran
Actually, rank, it was said in the Sylvanas short story that she doesn't give two craps about her forsaken people, that they were just "arrows in the quiver" to be used against Arthas (she's even described to be disgusted by them) and now they're her "bulwark against the infinite to be used wisely", to protect her from the black hell she's doomed to go to. In other words, they're tools for her usage. Interestingly, she's also described as having the same mentality towards her high elven people back when she was alive.Playing the devil's advocate, though, I have to argue that the short stories were written by fans, not professional authors. While Blizzard did have the final say on what was actually put on their site, you do have to take things like tone and character interpretation with a grain of salt. Just because that's how that one author interpreted her, it doesn't set it in stone.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
Actually, rank, it was said in the Sylvanas short story that she doesn't give two craps about her forsaken people, that they were just "arrows in the quiver" to be used against Arthas (she's even described to be disgusted by them) and now they're her "bulwark against the infinite to be used wisely", to protect her from the black hell she's doomed to go to. In other words, they're tools for her usage. Interestingly, she's also described as having the same mentality towards her high elven people back when she was alive.Playing the devil's advocate, though, I have to argue that the short stories were written by fans, not professional authors. While Blizzard did have the final say on what was actually put on their site, you do have to take things like tone and character interpretation with a grain of salt. Just because that's how that one author interpreted her, it doesn't set it in stone.
It was written by Dave Kosak, the lead quest designer.
Yeah but if you remember, it also features a pretty strong continuity error, as garrosh is seen spearheading the first assault on Gilneas, something that can't be, since as far as the game goes, his visit to silverpine on
this quest,
was supposed to be the first one. But then this short story tells us he was there before, then left, then came back again?
These short stories are dubious at best, which is why I'm so reluctant to read them.
Post by
Skreeran
Continuity errors are just a part of Warcraft. That's why I'm not really concerning myself with current WoW events. The setting is about all I'm really interested in at this point.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lordplatypus
The in-game material is less canon than short stories imho. The game is most likely been modified so that players would be able to play though them (WC3 based Raids forcing bosses in, being able to come back from the dead easily etc etc.).
Post by
Adamsm
You realize when you die in game, you are only a 'little' dead; that's a game mechanic, not a lore based thing.
Post by
Rankkor
The in-game material is less canon than short stories imho.
The game is most likely been modified so that players would be able to play though them (WC3 based Raids forcing bosses in, being able to come back from the dead easily etc etc.).
o_O only when it suits you?
Lich King: Portrayed as pure unrepentant evil in the book.
Portrayed as having a little light inside in the form of arthas in the game.
Yet on THIS case, the game is more canon.
But hey
Sylvannas: Portrayed as a leader who loves her people, treats them with respect, and cares for them in the game.
Portrayed as treating her own people as disposable arrows that mean nothing to her in the book.
And on THIS case, the book is more canon.
Make up your mind will you?
Post by
Lordplatypus
He was portrayed as having some light in him during the pre-WoW storylines, which take precedence over the books (being created as the first part of the post-retconaclypse azeroth before gameplay took over).
The only part where he had a real character in (rather than as the lording antagonist). the series, in the story where he, himself, and the lich king (Arthas, Ner zhul and Mathias, his human side) were in his brain arguing, he silenced the spark of humanity and beat up nerzhul.
This implies that arthas had, following frostmourne, a sort of split personality, lehner being the part of him inside frostmourne, his soul, his humanity. This is why i can forgive arthas. He still had a part to forgive.
In the books, arthas was portrayed as having a human side his domaiant death knight side silences, along with a basically impotent orc shaman that makes him sandwiches (Ok maybe not the last part)
When frostmourne shattered, it probably returned his spirit to his body, causing him to stop fighting.
Post by
Adamsm
And yet, his 'shred' tells you that it's useless to try to redeem him: He's gone dark and Tirion confirms it when he completely destroys the Heart.
The retcon was that there was any good in him in the first place.
Edit: Also, Arthas the Death Knight was the Hand of the Lich King during the Third War, they weren't made one being till he put on the Helm and Armour in the Throne. Till that point, while the Lich King was in Arthas head....Arthas still made the decisions about who should and shouldn't die; he proved that very well when the first thing he did was to kill his Father to prove to the old man that he was the better ruler.
Edit 2: In fact, as Matthias says
here
:
Now you know what you're up against, <name>. An opponent who no longer knows pain... remorse... or humanity. An opponent who will do anything to get what he wants.
The heart was his weakness and now he knows you've found it.
If you're going to go back for it, you'd best bring help. He will not leave it unguarded again. Shows that the retcon came out of ICC.
Edit 3: Further supported by the evidence
here
:
here you are. Are you ready then? Once we start, there is no turning back.
Gossip I'm ready, Highlord.
Highlord Tirion Fordring says: It is time. May the Light give us strength.
The party pauses outside the cathedral proper for just a moment before continuing.
Highlord Tirion Fordring says: Keep your heads down and follow my lead.
Highlord Tirion Fordring says: Here it comes. Stand ready.
Fordring leads the party to one of the pews as they wait for the Chosen Zealots to walk in and approach High Invoker Basaleph, laying the heart before him. As the zealots leave...
Chosen Zealot says: We lost many to the faceless ones, my lord. But we succeeded in retrieving the heart from Naz'anak.
Highlord Tirion Fordring says: Something's wrong... I sense a dark presence.
Tirion turns to look at the doorway as the Lich King enters.
Highlord Tirion Fordring says: The Lich King is here. May the Light guide our blades.
The Lich King approachs Basaleph, then turns to look directly at your party.
The Lich King says: Uninvited guests! Did you think you'd go unnoticed inside my dominion?
There's no point in continuing the ruse, so Tirion takes the Ashbringer in hand and walks right up to Arthas.
The Lich King says: I must confess... you were not altogether unexpected. I hope you find your final resting place... to your liking.
Highlord Tirion Fordring says: You sound a little too confident. Especially considering the way our last encounter ended.
The Lich King says: Last time we met, you had the advantage of fighting on holy ground. You'll find that our situation has been... reversed.
Highlord Tirion Fordring says: That might be, but I don't need to stand on holy ground to run that disembodied heart of yours through with the Ashbringer.
The Lich King says: I call your bluff. You're a paladin after all. Your obsession with redemption goes beyond the inane.
The Lich King says: You surely wouldn't destroy humanity's only chance to redeem its most wayward son. You'd sooner die!
Highlord Tirion Fordring says: The heart... the last remaining vestige of your humanity. I had to stop it from being destroyed. I had to see for myself. And at last I'm sure...
Highlord Tirion Fordring says: Only shadows from the past remain. There's nothing left to redeem!
Fordring charges the heart and runs it through with Ashbringer, knocking himself out, killing Basaleph and blasting the Lich King away as the heart explodes, dropping the Lich King down to 30% health.
The Lich King yells: Arrrrggggggggggh!
Disguised Crusader yells: Tirion's down! Defend him with your lives!
The three Disguised Crusaders rush forward and take defensive positions around Tirion.
The Lich King yells: You... will pay for that, old man. Slay them all!
The room full of NPCs circles around the party. Suddenly Thassarian, Koltira Deathweaver, Highlord Darion Mograine, and a group of Knights of the Ebon Blade run into the middle of cathedral.
(Alliance): Thassarian yells: I hope you fellows don't mind if we crash this party. I brought some old friends with me!
(Horde): Koltira Deathweaver yells: Take courage, crusaders. You do not fight alone!
The friendly death knights dispatch the room. Darion then runs up and opens a Death Gate to Crusaders' Pinnacle, turning to look at the Lich King.
Highlord Darion Mograine says: Quick, through the portal! He won't stay down for long.
(Alliance): Thassarian says: Looks like whatever Tirion did put some hurt on the Lich King. It's too bad we can't finish him off....
(Horde): Koltira Deathweaver says: The Lich King is badly hurt. We ought to stay behind and finish him.
Highlord Darion Mograine says: Patience... we will get our chance soon enough. Be content that for once, it is Tirion who is in our debt.
The party takes the portal before the Lich King finishes winding up the Lich King's Fury, which would instantly kill anyone foolish enough to remain behind.
Post by
1069282
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Uther and Muradin, two of the people he betrayyed.
They even choose to remember him as before frostmourne.
If they could, why can't we?
Post by
Adamsm
Uther and Muradin, two of the people he betrayyed.
They even choose to remember him as before frostmourne.
If they could, why can't we?
Feel about his spirit the way you want to; no is saying you can't...but don't be surprised when there are people who see the horrors and monstrosities he committed on Azeroth being more important then those memories.
Because honestly...name 5 good things that Prince Arthas did; I can think of one, which is the fact that he kept the Legion/Scourge from turning Stratholme into a massive undead breeding ground. For the rest, I can only remember the selfish, stupid, violent, betrayal and other things he did which caused so much pain and suffering to the Eastern Kingdoms.
Post by
morginar
Uther and Muradin, two of the people he betrayyed.
They even choose to remember him as before frostmourne.
If they could, why can't we?
Feel about his spirit the way you want to; no is saying you can't...but don't be surprised when there are people who see the horrors and monstrosities he committed on Azeroth being more important then those memories.
Because honestly...name 5 good things that Prince Arthas did; I can think of one, which is the fact that he kept the Legion/Scourge from turning Stratholme into a massive undead breeding ground. For the rest, I can only remember the selfish, stupid, violent, betrayal and other things he did which caused so much pain and suffering to the Eastern Kingdoms.
And acted a lot on personal hatered towards the scourge that led to him traveling to northrend into a trap.
Post by
H3Knuckles
Fought off Blackrock orcs seeking to enslave villagers of Strahnbrad
Slew that group of bandits attacking villagers
Slew Searinox (granted, he was kind of minding his own business at the time, but being a Black Dragon it's pretty safe to assume he was up to something)
Held off the Cult's undead forces long enough for Uther to bring reinforcements and save Hearthglen
Stopped the Scourge from harvesting Stratholme
Personally, I feel that Arthas was a fantastically well-told tragic character in W3:RoC & tFT, but that the novels & WoW turned him into a sniveling, immature idiot obsessed with his broken toys (Invincible) and daddy issues, who couldn't lead a war effort worth a damn (pretty much all of WotLK), and that the whole "he was holding the Scourge back" was a pretty sorry attempt to explain why they just sat there waiting for the raiders to come kill them. I'm getting pretty tired of seeing great characters, and characters with great potential (Zul'jin & Teron Gorefiend anyone?) going to waste to feed the woodchipper that is raid content.
I like to rationalize "there must always be a lich king" as the Scourge would not have wiped out all life, but would have been a constant, pervasive threat with frequent outbreaks (like a plague, fittingly) without a leader, making life on Azeroth a living nightmare. That Arthas' "holding them back" was as much about his need to play the general and build a kingdom as it was any good intentions, if not more-so. And lastly, that while it left the Scourge more containable in the short term, it made them a bigger threat in the long term, one with the potential to wipe out orders like the Knights of the Silver Hand, Scarlet Crusade, even potentially the Argent Dawn, to say nothing of toppling some of the world's strongest nations. But that's just my personal head canon.
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