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Discussion on IP piracy
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Post by
Squishalot
Hunting the Taliban causes harm to the internet?
I didn't say anything, or even imply anything, of the sort. I think you should stop thinking in analogies. You're losing the plot here, MyTie.
Post by
MyTie
You're losing the plot here, MyTie.
Ok. Here's the important parts of the conversation thus far, at least, as my memory serves:
MyTie: SOPA is dangerous for the internet and doesn't stop pirates.
Squish: SOPA could be worded differently, to not pose a danger, and stop pirates.
MyTie: There is no wording that could be used to stop piracy.
Squish: Yes there could.
MyTie: Ok, what wording wouldn't be dangerous, and would still stop pirates?
Squish: Oh, it would still pose a danger, but at least it would stop pirates.
MyTie: Pirates aren't important enough to go after and stop if it means endangering the internet.
Is that where we are at? Do you have anywhere you'd like to go from here? It doesn't seem like we have anywhere to go.
Post by
207044
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
buzz3070
The bill will accomplish nothing short of taking away personal freedoms.
So your saying torrenting games is a personal freedom? The reasons you listed really are not good justifications to torrent games because of the resources avalible to help you make a more informed choice, as in finding games that are not broke as hell or have a short campagin or are just not fun at all.
Post by
Adamsm
Even when I buy a game legitimately I still use the crack. While I am morally opposed to piracy I cant afford to support crappy game company's. If a game meets my 3 criteria I will buy it even if I already beat and dont intend on playing again.pc controllers actually work( have played 2 games where I had to rewrite config files to allow me to use keyboard mouse) Is completable (some games you hit certain point and it will glitch and be unbeatable) and has more 12hrs of content.
I find it wrong when games like force unleashed 2 use brand name to dupe people into buying it. It took me more time to fix glitches than it did to beat game. Hour or so of custom config files to get keyboard mouse to work. Took 3 different video card drivers to get through game without crashing. And I beat in total of 2 hours 13 min And that's precisely why I don't pirate my games and just purchase them; too much hassle for little to no reward, far easier to just get the real thing.
Post by
207044
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
buzz3070
So your saying torrenting games is a personal freedom? The reasons you listed really are not good justifications to torrent games because of the resources avalible to help you make a more informed choice, as in finding games that are not broke as hell or have a short campagin or are just not fun at all.
No what I am saying is tech savy people will always find a way. The people that stand to lose are people who dont know difference inbetween ip/url/dns ect. There are already ways to bypass the proposed way of blocking people. Average joe wouldnt be able to find create a way to bypass it.
Pretty much any who is adept enough to bypass copyright protection could create a script to ping server get real ip instead of url and auto convert url into ip. In under 5 minutes
So this bill will block websites to users who are not tech savy yes cutting a small fraction of pirating. But where it will have 100% effectiveness. Is blocking sites that have news or information that those in power deciding what gets blocks can use this bill to block it will almost 100% effectiveness cause average person would not know how to bypass the block. Also people choosing to block websites could get paid off by competitors to shut down facebook ect when their competing site comes online even if it gets overturned in a week it would be enough time to steal several customers/clients from facebook.
The problem with this bill is not that its attacking piracy the almost non existent threat it is to piracy. Vs the threat it is to constitutional rights such as freedom of speech the power those moderating it would have. It could be used to regulate news and media while also giving corporations power to edge out internet giants.
Well to address your first point, i did not get that all from your post. I got you have limited funds and are sometimes dissapointed in the games you purchase so you turn to piracy to get games to save yourself money to spend it on other things.
While i agree with the majoirty of your post i still fail to understand why it violates freedoms, yes the bill is very broad in what it can allow copyright holders to do and sure it can be potentially used for shady business practices in shutting down competition. It still does not mean that piracy is a personal freedom as you put it.
Post by
204878
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
buzz3070
i still fail to understand why it violates freedoms
It violates the freedom of speech as it removes the right of all website owners and users to link to, embed or in any way communicate how to view copyrighted material to which you do not have express legal permission. Though proof may not matter as you have to only be accused of violating copyright to be censored, not proven. Which is the other right it removes: Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (to be considered innocent until proven guilty).
Torrenting is a grey area. The people who host The Pirate Bay do not host any copyrighted material, they simply distribute files which connect people that have the file with people that want the file. At what point does it become a crime? If I were to read a thread on Wowhead and see a person who wanted a movie I have a copy of and we exchange it over FTP, should Wowhead be held responsible for the interactions between me and the other person not on their site? So why should The Pirate Bay?
And another matter, does anyone think it's a crime to download a digital copy of a movie you have on DVD? I've done that hundreds of times, so I don't have to locate the disc. It's technically legal but I'm sure someone's crazy enough to have an issue with that too.
I actually disagree with that point, as far as i am aware freedom of speech does not protect protect people from using copyrighted material without consent, Though if it does i would like to see a court case verifying that.
As for the pirate bay they should be held resonsible because they knowingly host a site which engaes in illegal activity, in that respect they should be charged with something of that nature and not with copyright infringement. As for the wow example because wowheads main intention is not knowingly participating in illiegal activity then in that senerio as long as the users where banned in this case you and the other user then they should not be subject to legal action. This is coming from someone who has downloaded many torrents before.
Post by
Adamsm
As for the pirate bay they should be held resonsible because they knowingly host a site which engaes in illegal activity, in that respect they should be charged with something of that nature and not with copyright infringement. As for the wow example because wowheads main intention is not knowingly participating in illiegal activity then in that senerio as long as the users where banned in this case you and the other user then they should not be subject to legal action. This is coming from someone who has downloaded many torrents before.
What illegal activity exactly? Since it's not that different from a friend lending you a CD/tape(cassette or VHS)/DVD and making a copy of it for yourself; as long as you don't go ahead and start charging money for it, and merely use it for private use, you aren't breaking any laws in that regards.
Post by
204878
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
As for the pirate bay they should be held resonsible because they knowingly host a site which engaes in illegal activity, in that respect they should be charged with something of that nature and not with copyright infringement.
None of The Pirate Bay's material is illegal in the countries which host the website. Why should they be charged with something which isn't a crime in the location it's taking place in?
What about "hardware" piracy? Is there strict anti-piracy laws in Somolia? If not, do you think that they shouldn't be charged with anything?
Post by
204878
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
If it's legal, and it's a non-crime involving only people who are living in the country who are free to relocate somewhere the law offers protection from the action then it's none of my business really, although I dislike any form of violence. I think if the crime was committed against a citizen of another country I think that country has the right to get involved to peruse justice against the perpetrators
and only the perpetrators, not their country nor government
as there is a loss (actual theft), or (threat of) violence, or (attempted) terrorism (in the strictest sense).
For clarification, I was talking about actual pirates on boats. The waters of Somalia are particularly thick with them. If Somalia doesn't have anti piracy laws, would it be ok for those pirates to steal the goods shipped through those waters, as long as they don't use violence? What I am asking, is if you think stealing is amoral if there is a lack of judicial repercussion, and if not, what implication do geographic boundaries have for countries that wish to seek justice for their wronged citizens outside their jurisdictions?
I think we might disagree, to a point, on the issue of piracy itself.
Post by
204878
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
What I am asking, is if you think stealing is amoral if there is a lack of judicial repercussion, and if not, what implication do geographic boundaries have for countries that wish to seek justice for their wronged citizens outside their jurisdictions?
That would again depend on the citizenship of the perpetrator and the victim(s). If they're all from the country then I'd agree it's amoral from their perspective, although by my moral standards it's immoral because of the theft and possible emotional trauma.
If other countries' citizens are involved I think they would have the right to peruse the issue through diplomatic means between the governments. Failing a resolution of this, I'd argue that if they will not enforce it then in the future people planning to travel near the area may want to avoid it and/or arm and defend themselves (undoubtedly that's legal if piracy is). And even if lethal self-defence wasn't legal, I'd consider it moral as a necessity.
Apply this argument to the situation of online piracy, as best you can, anyway. It's a stretch, but indulge me, if you care to.
Post by
204878
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
207044
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
buzz3070
I actually disagree with that point, as far as i am aware freedom of speech does not protect protect people from using copyrighted material without consent, Though if it does i would like to see a court case verifying that.
So you don't think you should be allowed to say anything on any site unless it's completely your own contributions? Should remixes of songs be banned too if they use sampling? What about linking to a website which contains copyrighted images? Or uploading an image you don't own to a social media site like Facebook? Hell, even singing "Happy Birthday" in public violates copyright law. Where is the line?
As for the pirate bay they should be held resonsible because they knowingly host a site which engaes in illegal activity, in that respect they should be charged with something of that nature and not with copyright infringement.
None of The Pirate Bay's material is illegal in the countries which host the website. Why should they be charged with something which isn't a crime in the location it's taking place in?
As for the wow example because wowheads main intention is not knowingly participating in illiegal activity then in that senerio as long as the users where banned in this case you and the other user then they should not be subject to legal action. This is coming from someone who has downloaded many torrents before.
The Pirate Bay isn't knowingly either. They can't tell the difference between someone who is using the site to get a legitimate backup copy of the file or pirate it, or whether the file breaches copyright (except the part that it doesn't at the torrent file host location). They also can't tell what country the file is being sent to nor whom to because that data purposefully isn't recorded.
It may be another topic, but I think if all information, especially books, journals and textbooks were freely available to all human society would develop faster and smarter far quicker. And hey, maybe even reduce social ills because it would give kids something to do or get absorbed in.
Forgive me i havent figured out how to break up quotes to address individual points so ill answer in the order you asked.
Perhaps that was a poor choice of words on my part, in those cases though remixes with samples are allowed only if they use a certain amount of music like 30 seconds of a song or so without crossing the line, as far as linking goes im not sure how that works, and for uploading images a simple citation would suffice to give credit to the author, the line is fuzzy to say the least but there are rules in what is considered copyright infingement.
While it may not be illiegal in the country the site is hosted in, their are treaties that govern international copyright and by those treaties they should be charged.
I actually laughed at your last statement, you really dont think that they know they are doing something illegal? they flaunt that they are on a regular basis while some users may use the site for resonable usues, most just use it to pirate things.
Yeah i agree with you on the last part.
Post by
MyTie
Apply this argument to the situation of online piracy, as best you can, anyway. It's a stretch, but indulge me, if you care to.
Well, in copyright infringement, there's no threats, nor lost property, nor lost time, or an interaction with the distributor. There's a potential for loss of income from copyright infringement with it being downloaded by people who would buy if they couldn't file share. I think people who were the victims of piracy at sea will remember the event and have nightmares about it, in comparison I doubt people who have their intellectual property duplicated would be as psychologically impacted.
As for the location of the crime, that's quantifiable co-ordinates on the Earth and stamped in time, however copyright infringement is a large series of events distributed over large spaces:
Uploader buys DVD -> Rip and re-encode as digital file -> Package as torrent -> Upload to Directory -> Upload file contents once -> Peers distribute parts of the file amongst themselves over time
There are few records at any stage linking the perpetrators of copyright infringement (a lot of countries don't allow IP addresses as evidence either and that's the best way). This is as opposed to:
Pirate meets victim -> Steals/threatens/rapes/kills/captures -> They maybe get to leave missing property or appendages
I had considered adding an addendum earlier about how they don't overlay properly but I wasn't sure this was where you'd go. If there's any sections you think I've missed or disagree with I'd be willing to give that a try too.Do you feel the lack of violence in online piracy excuses it? Do you feel the difference in the perpetrators theft itself makes it any less of a theft. Setting aside the violence, a loss of money is a loss of money. Certainly online piracy and high seas piracy are two very different things. I guess, what I'm asking, is setting aside the physical violence of in-person piracy, do you feel that the theft of goods is "less immoral" in one or the other?
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