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Are Muslims being demonised?
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Post by
MyTie
If we went back to before the First Crusade and transposed the Islamic and Christian civilizations, would the situation be the same as today with the roles reversed, or would the Middle East be a much more peaceful place?
Good point, but it doesn't change the way things are. There IS a problem with violent Islamic terrorists. It is a HUGE problem. Why, on the anniversary of some of these terrorist actions, do we focus on whether Muslims are being treated fairly?
Post by
134377
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Post by
168916
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Post by
Patty
If we went back to before the First Crusade and transposed the Islamic and Christian civilizations, would the situation be the same as today with the roles reversed, or would the Middle East be a much more peaceful place?
Good point, but it doesn't change the way things are. There IS a problem with violent Islamic terrorists. It is a HUGE problem. Why, on the anniversary of some of these terrorist actions, do we focus on whether Muslims are being treated fairly?
Because it was (for the most part) as a result of 9/11 that Muslims began to be demonised by the western media and society as a whole. It has almost always been emphasised that it was Islamic extremists that carried out the attacks, yet when a
Christian
is in the position of terrorist (Breivik), faith is less stressed upon.
Anyway, I decided to try and keep out of the debate for a while to try and collect my thoughts, and hopefully this doesn't come across with a nasty undertone.
Yes, to some extent Muslims have been demonised by society. I again refer to Norway in which the presumption was made that this was co-ordinated by Al Qaeda, simply because it's a very recent example. Many more people use 'paki' as a racial slur over the last few years, I've noticed, and some feel on edge around Muslims, particularly women wearing burkhas.
However, on the other hand some Muslim communities detach themselves from society as a whole. Some do not participate in some English customs, even simple things like learning the language. It's a two way street, but I do not think that being different warrants the villification of the Muslim faith by society.
Furthermore, many of what of the little I have read of the Quran has a similar counterpart in the Bible, on women for example.
Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them.
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Post by
Squishalot
On the radio over the weekend, there was an interview with BBC and Rudy Giuliani. He was asked if the Muslim community should feel victimised at the fact that the NYPD operate a very well funded surveillance operation that basically follows, wire taps and scrutinises the affairs of mosques and the Muslim community as a whole.
His answer was that no, they shouldn't feel that way, it's perfectly justified.
Interview here.
The threat isn't from the government section. The threat isn't from the people who live near Kings County Hospital... The reality is what the police are doing is sensible police work, they're looking at where terrorism has come from and they are focusing on people who are suspected terrorists. Now, it turns out they're Muslim, but they're not focusing on Muslims, they're focusing on suspected terrorists.
Now remember... the first attempt to take those buildings down was put together in a mosque in Union City, New Jersey, so when you know something like that, and when you know there are certain mosques, not all of them, that are planning an attack, well, you're not going to look in a church, you're not going to look in a synagogue, you'd just be wasting your time, it'd be stupid police work to do that.
This was the defense he put forward to his opposition of the 'desecration' of the proposed mosque near Ground Zero.
Now, I'm not American, but the fact that he's happy to paint a community as a target, on the basis of what he acknowledges are only a few individual problem areas within it, is somewhat disappointing, considering his stature and influence in the US.
Post by
168916
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Post by
pezz
If you want to think of it simply on the level of origin, that's your prerogative. That makes absolutely no sense to me. Like I said, there's no point in arguing with me, I'm just looking at two descriptions and concluding that they are different.
You're not following what we mean here. The idea that Muslims worship the same god as Christians is not a religious interpretation I personally believe to be true, it is a factual description of Islam. It's what the Koran says and what Muslims generally believe.
But you're not following her. It's useless to say that. Islam and Catholicism both have rich but quite distinct theological and philosophical backgrounds that have
been
distinct for over a thousand years. The ideas surrounding the God are vastly different.
Look at it this way, what is the best context in which to study God: History or Religion?
Post by
Jubilee
If you want to think of it simply on the level of origin, that's your prerogative. That makes absolutely no sense to me. Like I said, there's no point in arguing with me, I'm just looking at two descriptions and concluding that they are different.
You're not following what we mean here. The idea that Muslims worship the same god as Christians is not a religious interpretation I personally believe to be true, it is a factual description of Islam. It's what the Koran says and what Muslims generally believe.
And the only evidence you've put forward is completely one-sided and far removed. If the "Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster" claimed that they were worshiping the same God as Christians, while maintaining all their non-Christian beliefs about God (like that he is made of spaghetti), that would not make it true. There are obvious contradictions in both accounts of belief that need to be explained and brought to an accordance by both sides before any such conclusion can be made. It
is
a religious claim if you're only basing it off the Qur'an.
Post by
134377
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Post by
168916
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Post by
MyTie
The terrorism you're talking about is essentially political.No. It is on the surface political, but at its essence it is religious. The perpetrating terrorists disagree politically with America's support for Israel. But at the heart of the issue, they feel a deep hatred for the Jewish way of life and belief structure. They align against the Jew, but it should be noted that they do not align with the Palestinian. The Palestinians have been denied asylum by everyone but Israel. I'm not going to say Israel is always right when it comes to Palestinians, or that I take their side. I'm just saying that the Muslim fight is not FOR something, but AGAINST something. To me that makes a big difference. And, finally, I'd like to note that Islam recently choose, for its holy sight, the same exact spot that the Jews had had their temple for thousands of years. Coincidence? I really dislike the whole attitude there.
Because it was (for the most part) as a result of 9/11 that Muslims began to be demonised by the western media and society as a whole. It has almost always been emphasised that it was Islamic extremists that carried out the attacks, yet when a
Christian
is in the position of terrorist (Breivik), faith is less stressed upon. Unfortunately, every religion has its nutjob. Breivik was a horribly atrocious excuse for a human, and he was a right wing nut. He said he was Christian, but he obviously wasn't, due to his actions.
Every once in a while, some self proclaiming Christian goes and murders people. Nearly every day, some self proclaiming Muslim goes and murders people.
I don't think that all the worlds problems lie with Islam. That isn't fair. A whole bunch lie with everyone else, too. However, Islam has a gigantic violence problem. I don't like seeing that excused, or justified, or painted over because 'none of us are perfect'.
Take into consideration that some nut Christian burned the Quoran in Florida. What was the reaction to this event? Take a look:On 1 April 2011, upon hearing the news, protesters in the northern Afghanistan city of Mazar-i-Sharif and elsewhere attacked the United Nations Assistance Mission, killing at least 30 people, including at least seven U.N. workers, and injuring at least 150 people.Read the whole wiki article here. It isn't just one lone nut, as it is with Christianity, but it is endemic of groups of nuts, and swaths of the populace. I know I have to say "Muslims are by and large peaceful", but at the same time "groups of them are out there murdering people". It's a fine line to walk. The most irritating thing is when some Christian nut like Breivik does something, nearly every single government and Christian group condemns it, but when a Muslim group goes out and murders, the Islamic governments and religious groups are silent, or take the opportunity to speak about how awful western governments are. The criticism is all one direction, but the violence is largely on one side.
Post by
MyTie
Let's not derail this into another religious argument.This thread is a religious argument. That's like asking a cookbook not to derail itself into another cookie recipe.
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MyTie
No, it's a thread about whether adherants of one religion have been portrayed as "demons", or attacked purely because of their belief, skin colour, language or dress. That has nothing to do with comparative religious discussion. That should be left for a separate discussion.Whether or not a group of people is demonized or not, does depend on that group's actions. Additionally, how can a measure of demonetization be made without placing that group on a field of other groups with its peers?
You say yourself that the thread is about whether adherants are portrayed the way they are because of their "belief", but then say the thread is being derailed when that belief is examined, in relation to the actions it produces, and contrasting it with other beliefs?
How does that make any sense? These topics are integral to the topic being discussed. How can Islamophobia be discussed without discussing Islam and its relation to other religions?
Post by
134377
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Pwntiff
You are lumping everybody into a "group". Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Christianity are vastly divided into "groups" with very different beliefs. Not many commit murder, though some do. The belief of the people who hijacked the planes, is not the same as the belief of most moslems, in exactly the same way that the beliefs of christian Hitler does not represent the views of most christians. I still feel that normal, everyday people, who happen to be moslem, are unfairly discriminated against.
If denominations of a religion vary too greatly from the core, they are no longer a member of the root religion. Hence Christianity, Judaism, and Islam in the first place.
Also,
Hitler was fairly anti-religious
.
Post by
MyTie
You are lumping everybody into a "group". Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Christianity are vastly divided into "groups" with very different beliefs. Not many commit murder, though some do. The belief of the people who hijacked the planes, is not the same as the belief of most moslems, in exactly the same way that the beliefs of christian Hitler does not represent the views of most christians. I still feel that normal, everyday people, who happen to be moslem, are unfairly discriminated against.
This is what I'm talking about. This is decidedly ON TOPIC. Discussion of this sort is not derailing the thread at all, but very necessary for the thread to be complete.
Post by
Liquoid
Are Muslims being demonised?
Is the sky blue?
Post by
OverZealous
Are Muslims being demonised?
Is the sky blue?
This, actually, was spot on.
Post by
MyTie
Are Muslims being demonised?
Is the sky blue?
No. The sky is clear. The way the oxygen and nitrogen scatter light particles gives the impression of the color blue to our eyes.
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