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Can of Worms: Does telling a racist joke make you racist?
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Post by
ElhonnaDS
So if someone says that they would kill their own child for being gay, that's not bigotry, but if someone hears you say something racist and believes you, that IS bigorty?
What is this I don't even...
Post by
Murrdurr
When you hear it from a comedians mouth inside a comedy club, no I wouldnt call that racist or bigotry. If youre going to a comedy club where someone like tracy morgan is doing work, you should never expect jerry seinfeld style humor, youre going to hear some harsh things and dont bother with the "well maybe they didnt know his style" fact is if youre going to a comedy club at random you should already be someone who is open to any type of joke, if not look up whos going to be there and research the comedian to see if he is "to dirty for you". Same way if I told a joke that was racist and someone ignores the fact it was just a joke and rages on about me being a racist, yeah thats bigotry and closed minded. Seriously, people getting all worked up over stuff like that should just stay away from society.
Post by
OverZealous
Someone, somewhere will be offended by anything you might say or do. Most people, however, will not. I do not think telling a racist joke makes you a racist, because it is just that; a
joke
. If you mean it, it might make you a racist. But the whole point of a joke is that it isn't serious and it's meant to be funny. Why you would take something obviously not meant to be serious seriously, and take offense from it, is beyond me.
Post by
Jubilee
Murrdurr, isn't the opposite bigotry and closed-mindedness also? You're getting all worked up about them not seeing the harmlessness of the joke just like they're getting all worked up about you not seeing the harm of the joke. I wouldn't be so quick to judge the reactions of others based on your own world view.
And OverZealous, how do you know what is meant and what isn't?
Post by
ElhonnaDS
It's about content. You might good-naturedly make a joke about stereotypes that is mostly at the expense of the stereotype rather than the person. You could also make a joke about a member of a certain race that says they don't deserve to live, they are sub-human, or they deserve all manner of nasty things happening to them. That's not good natured- that malicious. Saying something is a joke is not a get-out-of-jail-free card.
When I defend that racial jokes can be made without being racist, it's usually because it's making fun of the fact that the stereotype exists. If a friend of yours does something that, stereotypically would be attributed to someone of their ethnicity, it can be good-natured to rib them about it. No one has ever said to a friend "good naturedly" "God, I should just f-ing kill you for being XYZ race or sexuality" because something that's malicious, and isn't a joke.
I know, Xara, that you've been very vocal on the gay marriage board, and I have agreed with you often there. Are you really ok with anything anyone wants to say about people being gay, as long as it's "a joke"?
Post by
Jubilee
I think the fact that you're using "friend" in your example is what makes all the difference. There is already a relationship between the person make the "joke" and the person being made fun of. I can say lots of things to my friends that I wouldn't ever say in any other context, because
they
know what I mean. It's when you're making those same jokes generally, speaking about some stereotypical person to people who don't have a relationship with you and so cannot know your inner disposition which is the context for most problematic jokes.
Post by
Murrdurr
It's about content. You might good-naturedly make a joke about stereotypes that is mostly at the expense of the stereotype rather than the person.
You could also make a joke about a member of a certain race that says they don't deserve to live, they are sub-human, or they deserve all manner of nasty things happening to them. That's not good natured- that malicious.
Saying something is a joke is not a get-out-of-jail-free card.
When I defend that racial jokes can be made without being racist, it's usually because it's making fun of the fact that the stereotype exists. If a friend of yours does something that, stereotypically would be attributed to someone of their ethnicity, it can be good-natured to rib them about it. No one has ever said to a friend "good naturedly" "God, I should just f-ing kill you for being XYZ race or sexuality" because something that's malicious, and isn't a joke.
Is it really malicious? Like I said not all comedy is going to be clean or Chris Rock / Dave Chappelle / George Carlin racially funny. Speaking of the great Carlin, ever see any of his stuff? Yeah I dont know how many times he has expressed great harm to one person or an entire group, its just his stuff and to me its hilarious, am I wrong or a bad person for finding humor in it? No, because it wasnt meant to be serious or taken seriously, it was meant to make people who find "raunchy" comedy funny to have a laugh. But I do agree saying something is a joke is not always a "get out of jail free card" but most of the time, it is just a joke.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
I think the fact that you're using "friend" in your example is what makes all the difference. There is already a relationship between the person make the "joke" and the person being made fun of. I can say lots of things to my friends that I wouldn't ever say in any other context, because
they
know what I mean. It's when you're making those same jokes generally, speaking about some stereotypical person to people who don't have a relationship with you and so cannot know your inner disposition which is the context for most problematic jokes.
I agree. That's what I'm trying to argue, really- is that context is everything. If you have an understanding with your friends, it's not racist. If you construct a whole comedy act which, although it uses racial humor, is designed to not be racist but to break down racial barriers by making fun of everyone, or to make fun of racism, it can be misunderstood by some, but for the most part people understand what you're trying to do. But generally, in those situations, the kinds of jokes are different. If he had quoted a joke Tracy Morgan had made about something that is superficially attributed to being gay, some mannerism, activity or style of dress, I would say it could have been taken out of context.
I can't imagine a context where someone could say they'd shoot their child for being gay, and have it be meant in a good natured way, or as part of an overall message of everyone getting along and not taking our differences seriously.
@Murderr- I have seen Carlin. He had some real hate in his heart towards religion and religious people. I agree with the idea that religion is not necessarily fact, but I watch him and I see a lot of maliciousness when he talks. I have no problem with shock humor or raunchy humor- I happen to think Lisa Lampinelli is absolutely hysterical, and she says some ridiculous things about every minority and every orientation. But there is a difference in the kinds of things she says, the way in which she says things, and it's obvious when you watch her that her audience knows this. She doesn't say she wants to kill people for being of a certian ethnicity...she usually says she wants to sleep with them.
Post by
Murrdurr
I did quote a joke from tracy morgan. He was already on the subjects of gays when he added that throw away comment, is it word for word? No but its like 99% what he said. It was talked alot about on a radio program I listen to on Sirius XM The Opie and Anthony show, the 3rd host Jim Norton was even at Tracys gig and he made the joke in tracys own way (search for some of his stuff if you dont know what im talking about) and he even said the audience got a kick out of it. Why? Because I am sure almost all the people there knew what type of material they were going to expect, it was the random comedy club goers who took offense to it.
Tracy Morgan recently had to apologize to the gay community for a throw away joke he made at a comedy club. It was along the lines of "if I found out my son was gay I'd shoot that ^&*!@".
Now if you ever heard any of his stuff and know how he talks, you could imagine it was in a goofy way not to offend anyone. Yet there were some stiff people in the crowd and outraged about it, things are not looking good when people get offended at a COMEDY CLUB. So, if I told a racist joke or what have you and someone heard it and labeled me as a racist I would roll my eyes and call them a bigot.
Post by
Heckler
Meh, I think it's all about intent. I've had plenty of racist jokes told to me that simply weren't funny -- like I couldn't even understand where the humor was supposed to be. One example, I was recently in an Auto Parts shop and I was returning a grease gun that had stripped out fittings and leaked. The (white) attendant looked it over and said "Hmm, this thing musta been built by Mexicans" and looked up at me, chuckling to himself.
Not only did I not laugh, but I didn't even get where the joke was, or why it was acceptable for someone to say that. I'm sure he was "just joking" though, at least in his own mind.
So, there's definitely a line that once crossed says something about how racist you may or may not be, even when "joking." Let's say I was Mexican, would the Auto Parts Attendant still have made that comment? Probably not, so what does that tell you?
But Im not saying that
all
humor that is derived from racial differences indicates racism, I'm simply saying that it depends on the intent. But I'm now convinced that Auto Parts attendant is a racist, and his "joke" is what convinced me.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
If he had quoted a joke Tracy Morgan had made about something that is
superficially attributed to being gay, some mannerism, activity or style of dress
, I would say it could have been taken out of context.
I understood that you were quoting him, or at least paraphrasing him. What I was saying was that it was the type of joke that he made that leads me to believe that it probably was not a harmless jab. It wasn't about some attribute he found funny- he said he'd kill his kid for being gay. If the quote had been about something that is more superficial, I might have said it would depend on the context. See above edit.
Post by
Jubilee
I think Carlin is a great example. He is very anti-religious, and everyone should be able to see that, yet so many people like him and his anti-religious jokes. Not because he's somehow rising above the hatred and breaking down barriers and whatever. It's because people agree with him and are glad to have someone rip on religion for them. Now, I know this question is specifically about race, but I think the overall principle applies. Just because the person is standing up on stage and making people laugh doesn't all of a sudden make him a humanitarian.
Post by
204878
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
Psychologists have
claimed
that our sense of humour is inherently linked to our sense of superiority over others.
Fixed that for you, I reject the idea that psychologists (or anyone) can know what other people are thinking. Also, link to this study?
I'd be interested in seeing that too, actually. How would they account for self-depricating humor? Or what a baby, or a toddler, thinks is funny before they have a sense of self (making faces and playing peek-a-boo, etc.). What about word-play "Orange you glad I didn't say bananna?" and "Knock knock, who's there, mummified, mummified who? My mummified you a hamburger" that doesn't really seem to have anything to do with another person?
Post by
Haxzor
So are people going to call Dave Chapelle racist because he tells black people jokes?
Post by
Heckler
So are people going to call Dave Chapelle racist because he tells black people jokes?
I think Dave Chapelle has called Dave Chapelle a racist many times.
Post by
Cambo
I voted no.
It doesn’t
make anyone
racist, but it can reflect racist attitudes.
I make race-related jokes all the time, even with my foreign work colleagues that I have in my office. It doesn’t make me racist, because I respect all races, religions and cultures and I never marginalise or belittle anyone due to their skin colour or racial background.
It all depends on the delivery of the joke. You can tell by the tone and body language of the person.
I do think that people that get offended are most probably racist themselves, or haven’t been exposed to much of a mix of races and cultures. I am not sure if I worded the above sentence correctly. If you are open-minded and accepting of everyone, there is a far less chance of you being offended by a racist slur.
I also vote for a general thread.
Post by
164232
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
xaratherus
I know, Xara, that you've been very vocal on the gay marriage board, and I have agreed with you often there. Are you really ok with anything anyone wants to say about people being gay, as long as it's "a joke"?
Yes. Ish.
There have been times when I've been offended by something that someone said regarding my sexuality. In those cases where the intent wasn't to harm, the offense was because I wasn't sure of the intent; the person making the statement didn't mean to offend but I didn't catch it. Once the intent was cleared up, then I was fine with it.
I can only think of three instances where the speakers and I
didn't
clear it up - and in those cases, it was because of the history between myself and the speakers.
In regards to Tracy Morgan's joke? I never really saw the harm in it, once I saw the whole transcript of the routine. It's not like he just came out of nowhere and angrily said, "If my kid were gay, I hope he'd just kill himself!" Taken in context of the routine it was pretty obvious he didn't intend any harm to it.
As another example, take a look at one of my favorite all-time comedies: Blazing Saddles. Mel Brooks takes the piss out of pretty much everyone in that film, from gays to blacks to (especially) whites. He's what I call an "equal opportunity offender". It's obvious he doesn't have a mean bone in his body, but there are many who find that movie horribly offensive. Me? I find it abso-***kin'-lutely hilarious.
Post by
Squishalot
Psychologists have
claimed
that our sense of humour is inherently linked to our sense of superiority over others.
Fixed that for you, I reject the idea that psychologists (or anyone) can know what other people are thinking. Also, link to this study?
I've got a textbook reference, does that count?
The original study was
H. A. Wolff, C.E. Smith & H.A. Murray - 'The Psychology of humour: 1. A study of responses to race-disparagement jokes',
Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology
#28, pages 345-65. 1934
Other studies relating to the impact of disparaging humour on the targeted groups include:
G. R. Mario, J. M. Olson & J. Bush - 'Telling jokes that disparage social groups: Effects on the joke teller's stereotypes',
Journal of Applied and Social Psychology
# 27(22), pages 1986-2000. 1997
B. Seibr & J. Forster - 'Risky and careful processing under stereotype thread: How regulatory focus can enhance and deteriorate performance when self-stereotypes are active',
Journal of Personality and Social Psychology
, pages 38-56. 2004
The second article looks at how people listening to such jokes and finding them funny have a tendency to think negatively of the target group. The third article looks at how targeted people listening to such jokes (e.g. blonde people listening to blonde jokes) actually
perform
worse in tasks related to the negative stereotype (e.g. dumb blonde jokes, doing a maths / problem solving test).
You know me - I generally don't use 'experts have said this' arguments unless they're actually backed up. There are the references - do me a favour and actually read them (or articles / books about them, at least) before you reject them.
@ Murrdurr - if you go to an extremist Muslim's mosque and you hear him joke about the deaths of the thousands who died in the WTC attacks, is that somehow acceptable because you should have expected it?
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