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Total Biscuit Quits WoW
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Post by
reddwarf
Personally, I think the Cata content was a bit too difficult; not a lot, mind you (and I've done a fair bit of it myself - not cleared all of it, but I've taken periodic breaks since Cata launched), but still the gap went from "Normal" mode in ICC - and, again, I have heard a lot of people whine how "easy" ICC was, but I never experienced it (barring Gunship, but that was a gimmick fight) and I was in a fairly good guild for ICC - to "Hard" mode in Cata, thus leaving many of the people who were "okayish" raiders from Wrath out in the cold as Cata stuff was a bit too hard, and as mentioned before there was no real "Entry level content" (note I did not say "easy mode bosses with no mechanics", all fights don't have to be Patchwerk-level to be "entry level) for non-raiders and people who may have just been dabbling in raids the end of Wrath with some forays into ICC to do outside of Baradin Hold which isn't a real raid anyway; at least at the end of Wrath you could probably get a couple of bosses down in ICC, and chances are ToC25 was still being run from time to time, and maybe even ToC10 for a "Boot Camp" type of raid environment for newbies. ToC10 was how I cut my teeth on raiding (when ICC was out, mind you) because it was still fairly relevant and I could get some upgrades to help in ICC10, but it was low-key enough that people were willing to "take a chance" on an inexperienced player and "show them the ropes" because really, it's ToC10 so it's not ultra serious business, we have to clear this or we're scrubs type mentality.
These people were kicked to the curb for no good reason and basically told "Learn how to not suck" without being given any real way to do so because the dungeons were too long and boring (as someone else said the trash needed to be nerfed in dungeons, the bosses were mostly okay except maybe Ozruk and even that was more in need of the stronger visuals than an actual nerf), and raids were not accessible because it was for "serious raiders only".
To be perfectly honest I blame the community. The COMMUNITY has this idea that if you aren't doing the latest and greatest, you are a baddie/scrub. The COMMUNITY has the idea that "you should be this tall" to ride the rides, and are actually unwilling to assist anyone. To keep this at least partially on topic, Total Biscuit often lauded the virtues of "multi-tiered raiding" in Vanilla (not so much TBC because of attunements) wherein you could be working on some later bosses of one raid and still each week go and down a boss or two in the new raid, without the new raid totally invalidating the old raid or the community turning up its nose on anyone who is "still stuck" in the old raid. I believe the exact example he gave in one of his episodes of Blue Plz was something like being stuck at/working on Princess Huhuran (sp?) in AQ, and being able to go to Naxx40 and kill like a boss or two there to get a "taste" of what's forthcoming while you are finishing up AQ, and then when you are on C'thun being able to make progress into Naxx while working on killing C'thun.
There was no shame in working on the previous tier when the new tier came out, very much unlike how it is now where if you aren't in a progression guild tackling the new stuff the moment it comes out, you are labelled as a bad and a scrub and considered "inferior". If the above was the modern day it would be something like this:
* Work on Huhuran up until Naxx40 comes out
* Stop progress totally on AQ, do new dungeons (not saying "heroics" because those didn't exist in Vanilla), craft new items with newly-released rep/grind/drops (not mentioning JP since that didn't exist in Vanilla)
* Go to Naxx40 after several weeks of the above
* Never touch AQ again except to get Qiraji mounts (analogous to doing old raids for mounts/achieves only)
Post by
Treskol
There goes the last decent WoW show I watched, since Yogscast quit too
(I never cared much for JesseCox)
Meh. Swifty occasionally uploads some stuff...if you like PvP anyways lol.
Swifty the 2200 hero?
He helps out new warriors get from 1400 to 1900, but he is nothing special really.
Post by
Deepthought
THE HEROICS ARE STILL HARD.
And, as such, the gap between Normal and Heroic has been expanded, such that the jump in difficulty will put off even more people from doing them. This is a bad thing.
Last I heard, the Heroic versions of the nerfed raids also got nerfed.
With the upcoming content patch, 10- and 25-person Normal mode raid encounters will be receiving a comprehensive set of tuning adjustments to decrease their difficulty.
Despite that statement, Heroic versions of the ability are being nerfed anyways.
Or so the Wowhead spell changes have revealed.
Good job trying to use the official statement to contradict me though. =D
Notice how 4 versions of some boss abilities have been altered
(Disclaimer: This doesn't necessarily mean it's true, but it's a possibility.)
They've nerfed heroic mode content before, the difference here is that they have explicitly stated that this time every normal mode encounter gets nerfed, while they haven't done so for HCs.
Just because they say "All normal mode encounters are being made 20% easier." doesn't mean they can't add some unrelated HC nerfs, or that said nerfs are in any way related to the normal nerfs.
Post by
Sweetscot
@Reddwarf: I agree the community is more to blame than the ingame content itself regarding how hard it seems.
@Interest re: bc v cata: Yea I focused a bit too much on dailies in my ridiculously long post up there :P but my point was simply that there were lots of things to do in lots of different places that weren't "hey rat, press this bar 50 times for a taste of peanut butter, then do it again" which is how alot of cata content feels like to me.
I agree that throwing in a bunch of daily quest hubs wouldn't fix anything, but some items that can be picked off the ground or looted off mobs to hand in for rep with the existing factions would be a nice time waster addition :) for those not already exalted and for alts of course.
Post by
Interest
They've nerfed heroic mode content before, the difference here is that they have explicitly stated that this time every normal mode encounter gets nerfed, while they haven't done so for HCs.
Just because they say "All normal mode encounters are being made 20% easier." doesn't mean they can't add some unrelated HC nerfs, or that said nerfs are in any way related to the normal nerfs.
While true, what Sinispe was saying was that the gap between Heroic and normal raids is being widened. I offered evidence that contradicts that statement (the gap isn't technically widened).
@Interest re: bc v cata: Yea I focused a bit too much on dailies in my ridiculously long post up there :P but my point was simply that there were lots of things to do in lots of different places that weren't "hey rat, press this bar 50 times for a taste of peanut butter, then do it again" which is how alot of cata content feels like to me.
I wish Blizzard looked at fan sites (and see stuff like my suggestions list).
Post by
Deepthought
I offered evidence that contradicts that statement (the gap isn't technically widened).Yes it is? Four abilities do not a content tier make.
Post by
Interest
I offered evidence that contradicts that statement (the gap isn't technically widened).Yes it is? Four abilities do not a content tier make.
I said 4
versions
(meaning 10-man normal, 10-man heroic, 25-man normal, 25-man heroic << Do you understand yet?) of boss abilities (these even have different spell id numbers - I did make sure to check). I did not explicitly state how many abilities were actually affected. Good job on trying to prove me wrong.
Post by
298296
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Trishi
The thing with raids, as I've seen it in Wrath (Bad example for veterans probably, but I never hit raids in BC) is that even a team full of 5k "Gearscore" as most people used back then, could actually
wipe
on the newer content. Even by the end-expansion, I still experiences hundreds of wipes in Ulduar. Gear and skill isn't the same thing, as the gearscore addon clearly proved. They could have hit the itemlevel cap, and still wipe because they were idiots, or didn't know how to play their class.
Now, I'm assuming that this is the point people from BC raiding are trying to pull across: It is no longer possible to assume the people in the raid have a brain after the first raid tier. By end expansion, we can see tons of players will full valor epics, and overall killer gear from 5man heroics, but these players still lack a greater understanding of their class, failing at the most critical time in said raids.
The random heroic dungeon finder fails because of this. You get a group with a holy priest who isn't aware of Chakra. You get a DK tank who finds Death Strike useless. A Shaman who doesn't want to waste time interrupting. Or people in general who believes it is the healers duty to keep them alive, regardless of how big the flames they are standing in are. Even at this point, a lot of people are completely clueless about how to play the game currently. This is why a lot of people simply retort to the statement "Learn how to not suck", because it's frustrating to encounter these people every second dungeon you enter.
I agree with the tutorial thing. The heroics aren't cutting it as it is. The solution? Who knows. A solo dungeon that teams you up with a couple of npcs, with huge messages telling you what to do, and what not to do, would probably fix
some
of the issues, but would probably require more work than Blizzard wants to spend ressources on. Their current "learning model" is actually the dungeon finder - they want us to teach the less experienced and/or knowledgeable players how to play properly. This would have been far easier if people had been more willing to listen. Who haven't tried to teach someone an encounter, only to be met with the rageburst "I now wat im dooing, noob!"....
Post by
Trick83
As much as I enjoy his videos, it is no loss that will effect me. As a mage, I'm constantly appalled by his poor gameplay.
^^ This
/rant on
IMO, overrated internet "celeb" that quit because he won't have others polishing his e-peen.
Also, early on in the vid he says heroic mode doesn't interest him (@2:19 not direct quote,but close)...
quit over the usual content patch making stuff easier, but won't move to heroic = ?
blah blah raided on beta ...more crap....promoted team play...My mage AT LEVEL soloed over 90% of the group quests as fire. Found groups for Ring of Blood, the Gronn fights, turning point, and couple in SMV. Promote team play? Nope, promoted find a way and L2P.
It's not the content, it's not the nerfs, it's an excuse. He brings up EVE and at that I had to laugh. In EVE, it's adapt or die.
Enough with all the: I'm quitting because it's too hard/ not hard enough/ doesn't have enough cows in the cow level/ broke pvp/ broke my class/ bacon is OP/ whatever...
TL:DR - We all have things in the game we don't like. Play because you have fun. Play because you like it. If you're going to quit, DO IT and STFU.
/cast manashield
/cast mageward
/invis
/rant off
P.S. I currently don't raid (looking for guild that doesn't SUCK) so don't bother flaming my mage.
Post by
Trishi
As much as I enjoy his videos, it is no loss that will effect me. As a mage, I'm constantly appalled by his poor gameplay.
^^ This
/rant on
IMO, overrated internet "celeb" that quit because he won't have others polishing his e-peen.
Also, early on in the vid he says heroic mode doesn't interest him (@2:19 not direct quote,but close)...
quit over the usual content patch making stuff easier, but won't move to heroic = ?
blah blah raided on beta ...more crap....promoted team play...My mage AT LEVEL soloed over 90% of the group quests as fire. Found groups for Ring of Blood, the Gronn fights, turning point, and couple in SMV. Promote team play? Nope, promoted find a way and L2P.
It's not the content, it's not the nerfs, it's an excuse. He brings up EVE and at that I had to laugh. In EVE, it's adapt or die.
Enough with all the: I'm quitting because it's too hard/ not hard enough/ doesn't have enough cows in the cow level/ broke pvp/ broke my class/ bacon is OP/ whatever...
TL:DR - We all have things in the game we don't like. Play because you have fun. Play because you like it. If you're going to quit, DO IT and STFU.
/cast manashield
/cast mageward
/invis
/rant off
P.S. I currently don't raid (looking for guild that doesn't SUCK) so don't bother flaming my mage.
Ha, I have been laughing at this whole "promoting group play" thing as well :P They haven't been promoting it one bit more than usual. Aside from the CoC and perhaps a quest or two more, I have solo'ed all quests on my druid. Some of it were damn ^&*!ing hard, but not impossible at all. I realize that this may differ from class to class, but don't be silly now... Wrath had TONS of group quests that were nigh impossible alone (Dragonblight alone is enough to make Cataclysm's group quests look silly), and so did BC (Nagrand. Don't tell me you solo'ed Durn the Hungerer at level 67). Cata is by no means promoting team play through quests.
Post by
reddwarf
The problem with the Dungeon Finder as learning tool is that it's
geared
towards doing things as quickly as possible for the rewards, not helping people learn. In fact I would say that because it looks cross-realm and doesn't to my knowledge even give preference to people from your own server (you know, the people you might group with more often or get some actual help from) most of the time it's *detrimental* to helping anyone, because there's no benefit for helping somebody learn and there *is* a benefit for doing it as fast as possible (i.e. the VP/JP/Chaos Orbs/Satchel of Goodies if you're a Tank)..
On the subject of "group play" I think quests *should* be soloable 99% of the time. Honestly if Blizzard "borrows" anything from a game I'd like them to take the Skirmish concept from LOTRO, it's basically a dungeon that you can do solo with an NPC, OR with a group, and the rewards scale based on that (you can select varying levels as well so you can do the equivalent of, let's say, Zul Farrak at any level and the mobs are scaled to that level). It's a good way for solo players to still get enjoyment and fun and get some rewards, albeit the rewards aren't as good as the dungeon rewards. Maybe they could have a third group of points (Courage Points?) that could only be bought with items from the skirmish things, and make them like slightly less tuned Justice Point gear, so that JP gear is still better but not by a huge margin. This way people who can't or don't want to group with others in dungeons can do the Skirmishes solo, get their "Courage Points", and still get some fairly good rewards so if they later decided they wanted to do heroics or raids they are still just about at the bare minimum level. Also since Skirmishes would be a bit easier than dungeons it's a good way to gear up alts fast as you can do a bunch of them in succession (with a daily limit, probably) and quickly gear up an alt to bare minimum raid level, while someone who did it the more traditional way will be a little above "bare minimum". That's an idea for you.
Also, the main reason we are in this mess about raids is because Blizzard *wants* to push the idea that the previous tier is obsolete the moment the newest tier goes live. Community attitude then becomes the new tier is all that matters to anyone (not just to the high-end progression guilds who would be at that level to begin with) and as I stated previously it's a "mark of shame" to still be doing, or even want to do, the old tier; it's "proof" that the person in question is a noob/baddie/scrub. There is no progression path anymore, because Blizzard doesn't want there to be one, and they don't seem to realize (or don't care) that the problem people had with Wrath was that you *had* to be in the current tier, or you were in effect worthless in the raiding scene. Since obviously the old xpac raids are obsoleted, it's important IMO to make the first tier of raids fairly tame. Now they shouldn't be laughably easy, and should still teach coordination and boss mechanics, but they shouldn't be so difficult as to exclude the majority of people from raiding at least a little bit in there, which is what happened with T11. But, when you have no way to learn to raid and just get thrown into the deep end, people are *going* to be frustrated because they don't have any way to learn.
If you take a guild of people who are totally new to WoW, and are now at level 85, geared up in heroic blues, and want to start raiding, they are going to hit a brick wall in T11 because the raids are geared for experienced raiders who at the very least have done ICC in Wrath; a group of newbies who may not be exposed to ANY raids before are going to have a *very* hard time doing anything in T11 outside of Baradin Hold (again, a joke raid and not really even a raid as it is basically a target dummy that fights back), and you cannot learn by going back for fun and doing ICC or similar because it's going to be too much of a faceroll and you can just ignore most mechanics due to gear/power/level so again you won't learn anything from doing that. A person who is truly 100% new to raiding has no place to cut their teeth and learn, it's either not raid at all ever or raid and hit a brick wall in slightly overtuned content that people won't help you with but will instead just tell you that you suck and shouldn't be raiding because you don't know how to raid. Contrast this with the start of Wrath; yes I know everyone says how laughably easy Naxx10 was, but a starter raid *should* be easy so people can begin to learn the basics, and so you have less of a "serious business" mentality. I've noticed that with easier raids people are more laid back and less prone to nerdrage; sure there will always be people who think *everything* is serious business, but a lot of that has to do with the way a raid is structured. If a boss is difficult, or tricky, or very gimmicky, you don't want to wipe on the stupid thing and you become increasingly agitated as the night wears on.
Worse still, because Blizzard *wants* to perpetuate the notion that only the latest Tier matters, and all other Tiers are immediately invalidated, they themselves are helping that mentality. Correct me if I'm wrong as I have never played TBC or Vanilla when they were out, but (TBC attunement requirements aside) was there this same "Lol you suck you're still in X" mentality back then from the majority of players (not talking about top elite who may have been jackasses)? If this was TBC and I was still in Karazhan six months into TBC (I have no idea when the other raids were released so I don't know what the next raid would have been at this point), would I be looked down on and laughed at for not being in the current tier? How about in Vanilla? If I was still working on Blackwing Lair and AQ came out (again, not sure of the time frames things came out and I'm just picking raid names I know), should I just drop everything in BWL and jump to AQ because BWL is obsolete? That entire mentality started when ToC came out because *Blizzard* essentially came out and said "The old tier is obsolete, nobody should even be there except for achievements."
*That*, to me, is the most damning thing about the way raids are going. It's peer pressure at it's worst: Even with the nerfed content (and having seen a lot of it I think it was overtuned at the start so these nerfs aren't so much nerfs as "balancing" to me), peer pressure and the knowledge that you *can* get better gear from easier content (i.e. T11 from heroics) is going to *still* make it so there's no "slow improvement" going on, because the same damn thing is going to happen in Firelands: People who want to raid will want to raid Firelands because you don't have to even touch T11 anymore (and, therefore, anyone who willingly goes to T11 is a scrub), and run up against a brick wall because Firelands is designed, again, that you already have raiding experience, and because the folks who cleared T11 are frothing at the mouth saying "Firelands needs to be hard so we have a challenge again." and the averge people are saying "Firelands needs to be tuned appropriately so we can do SOMETHING in there as we try to improve and clear it." and the entitled people (of which I have seen VERY few actual "entitled casuals" as Mr. Biscuit likes to call them) are frothing screaming "I want to faceroll everything every week because I pay $15/month and you OWE me Ragnaros' head on a platter!" and promptly being ignored.
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Frames
How exactly do you get rid of the "current tier is the only tier" mindset? To me if T12 comes out T 11 is useless because it really is, if T12 gives better stats than T11 why would you spends weeks doing that T11 content if it was going to be obsolete anyway?
Edit: I guess if yuou make T12 on par with T11 just different bonuses or a different stat (parry instead of dodge, or something) people would base if T12 was better by personal preferance?
Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
reddwarf
You don't get rid of it, but IMO there shouldn't be such a huge gap between tiers to where one is 100% better than the other in every single regard, because *that* is what makes the previous one obsolete. Yes, the new raid's gear should be better, but it shouldn't totally invalidate the previous tier's gear, it should be a minor upgrade at best so there's still a reason to go back to the old tier for some final pieces (especially if said final pieces come from the last bosses).
Again, I didn't play Vanilla or TBC. How did it work then? Was it more an issue because you had to get X gear from Y raid before going to Raid Z (Vanilla) or you had to be attuned to the raid by killing all of the previous raid's bosses (TBC) that allowed for multi-tier content? Was that the only thing?
Post by
thedot
The only video I liked from this guy was the Gold Farmer one.
Post by
296147
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
reddwarf
I agree. The whole "Current tier is only tier, rest is old, it'll be forgotten completely" philosophy makes it so that we're all going to be stuck in one area. No matter how well-designed, we will eventually become bored of it. While it is great in some areas (not wasting resources on content 1% of the raiding pop. will see), the multi-tiered raiding system makes the longevity of the game longer.
Not only that, but multi-tiered raiding would encourage people to focus on their own progress and not the progress of everyone around them. I see it like this:
With single-tier raiding (the current system, and the system since 3.2), you constantly compare yourself and your guild to others, because you're all doing the same content and "vying" for the same rewards (in the sense of showing off around Orgrimmar/Stormwind). Someone who is struggling in content gets looked down at by people further ahead, because they're all "competing" for the same things. This leads to burnout (because you get tired of doing the same thing), wanting the content to be nerfed (so you can beat it or spend less time doing it), and promotes an atmosphere where if you are at a lower level than somebody else you are automatically a bad player.
A multi-tiered environment encourages a guild to focus on themselves as a guild *only*, and not worry about "peer pressure" from others. The guild's progress and the guild's achievements is what matters, because you as a guild have not finished off Nefarian so that's your concern, you don't want to worry about Firelands because Firelands will still be there, and you can still kill (assuming here) a boss or two in Firelands each week and use that gear/VP to help as you finish off Nef. You as a guild have a taste of Firelands (the boss or two you beat, and say a third boss that you give a couple of attempts at before going back to T11), and you want more, but you know that you need to finish T11 for the gear to help you have a better shot at Firelands. You don't care if other people are in Firelands already, because their progress doesn't affect you.
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