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A Game of Thrones
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Post by
Frostshamadin
Yeah, although I'm less love to hate and more stanning her, flaws and all (because lbr, her flaws are what make her so interesting). I think the general misogyny of a large portion of the book
and
show fandoms just make me love characters like Cersei, Sansa, Catelyn and Melisandre even more.
Recognizing a @#$%^ like Cersei for what she is, isn't misogyny. Say she's a good character if you will, but you can't denny she is a BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATCH.
Post by
Gone
WTB gif of Drogon crisping the slaver.
Post by
Patty
Yeah, although I'm less love to hate and more stanning her, flaws and all (because lbr, her flaws are what make her so interesting). I think the general misogyny of a large portion of the book
and
show fandoms just make me love characters like Cersei, Sansa, Catelyn and Melisandre even more.
Recognizing a @#$%^ like Cersei for what she is, isn't misogyny. Say she's a good character if you will, but you can't denny she is a BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATCH.
Not being able to recognise what made her get to that point is ignorant, however. In addition to that, I hate the general trend among the fandom (which, I'll emphasise again, isn't specifically aimed at anyone on here) to downplay male characters' flaws and then attribute female characters who have done far fewer bad things as "@#$%^es". Prime example being Tyrion, or Jaime, compared to... say, Catelyn.
ed: And the sacking of Astapor was done brilliantly, best scene of the show so far tbh.
Post by
Gone
Idk if that's really misogyny Patty. I think it's just the fact that Jamie and Tyrion are more likable to more people. I mean Arya is probably (tied with Tyrion) one of the two most universally well liked characters in the series.
Not being able to recognise what made her get to that point is ignorant, however.
Being a spoiled brat brought up with a massive sense of entitlement is what made her that way. Remember she drowned her best friend when she was just a child, the same night that she threatened to have an old woman hanged if she didn't read her fortune. Not to mention that bit about her twisting Tyrions cock when he was a baby...
Post by
Patty
It's the fact that almost consistently, the women who are popular are those who reject femininity. I'll use Arya as an example. I love Arya as much as the next fan, don't get me wrong, but I can't help but feel like 9/10 of fans
miss the point of her character completely
. Sure, she uses swords and stuff. The narrative doesn't make this out to be something "badass". It's played as a tragedy - she is basically a child soldier who makes so many sacrifices just for the hope of revenge. ASOIAF is very much an anti-war narrative, yet that seems to be ignored by many. Additionally, you can't consider Arya's story without Sansa's. They are perfect mirror images to one another - they both use their primary skills and the things they always wanted to be a part of to survive. They both, later, end up almost entirely isolated, are forced to adopt new identities, and are under the tutelage of well... not exactly the most healthy mentors to young girls.
So why is Arya more popular? Because she rejects femininity, whereas Sansa embraces it and dons it as her armor. Think about how many times she gets called "useless", or "weak", or "dumb" for something she does. Compare that with Arya's reception.
This isn't phrasing it in the best way I can, but basically it's just the double standard that annoys me.
On what made Cersei Cersei, I'll agree to an extent with you. However, she was raised with that sense of pride and entitlement, and I don't think it was ever stated she deliberately killed her friend. Tywin's parenting, along with his blaming of Tyrion for Joanna's death, surely rubbed off on her. Obviously this doesn't excuse all her actions, but it helps us understand them. Additionally, you also have to take into account how Cersei has been screwed over by the system. I don't know how you feel about fan-meta, but I think
this
sums up that particular aspect quite well. (spoilers for all books, I think).
Post by
Gone
Liking the female characters because they reject the stereotypical girly princess role isn't being misogynistic though. A true misogynist would only accept the women like Sansa who who stay in the proverbial kitchen, where as the women who actually go out and fight and take control of their surroundings (Arya, Brienne, Asha, Melisandre,Ygritte, Osha, etc) would be looked down upon. I can say this with quite a bit of confidence because I know somebody exactly like this, that I have to fight with about this very subject every time we talk about the show.
I think most people who read the books can pick up on the point of Aryas story, they make it kind of obvious. Remember that dream she had in GoT where she was walking down a dark hallway while her fathers voice is in the distance getting farther and farther away, and then blood starts seeping from the walls. Not much room for interpretation there. Her story is largly about loss of innocence, but that's not all its about.
People don't like her because she goes out and fights with a sword, they like her because she has a kind of indomitable spirit that can't be tamed or controlled (although as we've seen it can very much be corrupted).
The reason people don't like Sansa, by comparison, isn't that she uses femininity as her armor, it's more the way her character began. It's not that she was an intelligent woman who just uses her femininity as a weapon like certain other women in the series. It was more that all she really cared about was the Disney princess bull&*!@. She thought that life was a fairy tale, and even after she was exposed to some of it's ugliness she didn't change. She thought Joffery was this perfect little prince, even after what happened with Micha, and she even ratted her father out to Cersei when he was planning on making his move after Robert died.
Now when people finally started to like Sansa was during ACOK when she showed how much inner strength she really had.
I'm off to school now, I'll check out that link you posted when I get back, this took longer to type out than I thought.
Post by
Patty
Melisandre is a pretty misunderstood character, though. My point is, it's always "action girls" acting as rejecting femininity (all for different reasons, obviously) who are the most popular girls in the series, i.e. those who are more masculine. It's just an observation I've found, actually across most fandoms.
For Sansa, there are reasonable explanations for those those actions: (a) being that she was taught to defer to her husband in everything, and as she is betrothed to Joffrey, that's what she does, and (b) that if Ned had maybe said something more than "okay we're going and I won't tell you why", she would never have mentioned it to the Queen - that might have just scared her more, of course, but she had nowhere near the full facts. I mean, she still gets a bad reputation, and her actress has been attacked for it by fans, there have been several posts hoping she gets raped etc. Forgetting she was an 11 year old girl.
Also, Arya believed that life was a song, but that she was the knight and not the fair maiden. It's no different, really.
Post by
Frostshamadin
My point is, it's always "action girls" acting as rejecting femininity (all for different reasons, obviously) who are the most popular girls in the series, i.e. those who are more masculine. It's just an observation I've found, actually across most fandoms.
You realize how harmful sterotypical femininity can be to women right? The characters who reject this crap are the most popular? Good. They should be. The real women who struggle with their destinies are the ones like Arya and Leanna. Their fathers tried to tell them who and what they were going to be as well, and they rejected it.
Post by
Patty
My point is, it's always "action girls" acting as rejecting femininity (all for different reasons, obviously) who are the most popular girls in the series, i.e. those who are more masculine. It's just an observation I've found, actually across most fandoms.
You realize how harmful sterotypical femininity can be to women right? The characters who reject this crap are the most popular? Good. They should be. The real women who struggle with their destinies are the ones like Arya and Leanna. Their fathers tried to tell them who and what they were going to be as well, and they rejected it.
And that ended up going spectacularly well for both of them. :p
Femininity is not inherently harmful to women at all. What's harmful is the partiarchy in society that sidelines women, and defines one role for women that they should only be a part of. There's been a massive backlash against femininity lately, but it can be used well, it serves a purpose, and it's not inherently
bad
. (Characters like Margaery illustrate exactly how femininity can operate well in the political sphere. She's got the people who love her, is basically the main influence on the king, and is incredibly feminine).
Post by
Frostshamadin
1. Men or women, charatcters who run around with a sword will always be more interesting than characters who sit in a dress dreaming about princes and being rescued by a knight. The rescuer is always more interesting than the rescuee, and there is nothing misogynistic about that.
2. I said sterotypical feminiity is harmful towards women. As in the image of femininity that was put in place by the patriarchy that you feminists are always griping about.
Post by
Gone
Eh, ever since the whole walk of shame thing in ADWD people have been trying to turn Cersei into some figurehead for feminism. She isn't a tragic figure, and most of her misfortune she brought on herself. Yes, she had to marry a man she didn't love, but so did many other women in ASOIAF. She commitd her first murder before she was 12, she killed her husband, she killed his infant child in its mothers arms, and she may have killed another of his bastards IIRC according to rumors. She had an innocent woman taken to a dungeon and horribly maimed and experimented on just to keep her quiet, as well as dozens of other people who just spoke out against the crown.
I get her as a plot device, but that's about it. I don't have much sympathy for her as a character, other characters have been through worse and not come out as evil as her.
Post by
Adamsm
So Adam how ya liking Game of Thrones so far?
I'm enjoying it far more then I thought I would. And almost done season 2. Have to admit, I'm impressed; season one is Game of Thrones, season two is a Clash of Kings. Not sure what I think of splitting the third book into two season, but guess we'll have to wait and see.
Post by
Gone
So Adam how ya liking Game of Thrones so far?
I'm enjoying it far more then I thought I would. And almost done season 2. Have to admit, I'm impressed; season one is Game of Thrones, season two is a Clash of Kings. Not sure what I think of splitting the third book into two season, but guess we'll have to wait and see.
You watching the show first then reading the books, or doing the books first then show? Or just show?
Post by
Adamsm
Started the show, picked up the first of the books; was watching the show with my friend, as she had been told by another of our friends to watch it...and I got sucked in =P.
Currently going through the book, will probably pick up the other four fairly soon.
Post by
Gone
When you get to A Feast for Crows you should read that and A Dance With Dragons simultaneously. It makes the over all story much better since they were originally meant to be a single book. Otherwise the splitting up of the POVs makes AFFC kind of unbearable :/
Post by
Patty
Eh, ever since the whole walk of shame thing in ADWD people have been trying to turn Cersei into some figurehead for feminism. She isn't a tragic figure, and most of her misfortune she brought on herself. Yes, she had to marry a man she didn't love, but so did many other women in ASOIAF. She commitd her first murder before she was 12, she killed her husband, she killed his infant child in its mothers arms, and she may have killed another of his bastards IIRC according to rumors. She had an innocent woman taken to a dungeon and horribly maimed and experimented on just to keep her quiet, as well as dozens of other people who just spoke out against the crown.
I get her as a plot device, but that's about it. I don't have much sympathy for her as a character, other characters have been through worse and not come out as evil as her.
Yes, she killed the husband who hit and raped her. It's hardly like Robert was a hero, either. Their marriage was positively toxic, and that is proof of the system not working. Which is kind of the whole point of what I was arguing. For every Ned and Catelyn, you probably have a Robert and Cersei. Of course that wasn't the only reason she did what she did, but it has to be taken into account.
Obviously I'm not condoning her actions, I just don't see how people don't see that not everything is her fault and she wasn't the sole factor in the way she ended up turning out. If Tywin had been less cold and more helpful, or Joanna would have survived, perhaps Cersei would have been much more well-adjusted, and possibly a better Queen Regent when it comes down to ruling.
Post by
Gone
I just don't see how people don't see that not everything is her fault and she wasn't the sole factor in the way she ended up turning out. If Tywin had been less cold and more helpful, or Joanna would have survived, perhaps Cersei would have been much more well-adjusted, and possibly a better Queen Regent when it comes down to ruling.
You could say the same thing about almost every villain in the series though. If Ramsay Bolton hadn't been raised by a sociopath then maybe he would have turned out better. If Viscerys hadn't been forced to flee his home and live on the run, he might have grown up into a good man. If Asha and Theon had been born in any other part of Westeros they would probably be positively delightful.
Why is Cersei the one whose defense you come to? Especially since her upringing, really wasn't that bad. Tyrion was raised by the same people that she was, and he had a muuuuuuuuuuuuuch more difficult childhood, and he still grew up into a good person.
Compared to many people who turned out better than her, she lived a charmed life. Most of her misfortune she brought on herself. You talk about Robert hitting her? IIRC the first time he did it was after she threatened to have one of his children killed.
Post by
Patty
It's implied that he's done it before, however. And, my point is, all those characters have been screwed over. But, it's worth remembering in the case of Ramsay, he had an evil streak before he was put under Roose's wing. The only reason Roose got involved was because Ramsay's mother couldn't control him (Sound familiar? :P) He killed his brother before he was properly brought into Roose's household, and had very little influence from him before that point. Like I've said, Asha is probably the best of the Ironborn, and whilst I really do feel sorry for Theon, I don't think I will ever like him. Also, Tyrion being a "good" person is debatable, in late ASOS and ADWD, he shows his ugly side. Just as Tyrion (and later Jaime's) story shows the ugly part of ableism, Cersei is very much the warning for the horrible side of sexism. She's definitely not a feminist, that much is true (she wishes Lollys gets raped, if I recall correctly), but that doesn't mean her narrative doesn't have a feminist tone to it:
She's ambitious and cunning, like all Lannisters, but forced on the sidelines because of her gender. I believe there's a quote in AFFC about how Jaime and Cersei did everything together, before he got carted off to learn to be a ruler and fighter, whereas Cersei was taught to curtsey properly and look pretty.
This breeds resentment: why should she, because the gods cursed her with the feeble body of a woman (almost a direct quote, I think, but I don't have the books on me to check), be forced to the sidelines?
Then she gets carted off to Robert, who on the first night calls her Lyanna and constantly reminds her that she is not the woman he loved, when she should have been married to Rhaegar. He makes her feel like $%^&, occasionally hits him when he's drunk, and rapes her. I remember it being said that Cersei
tried
to love him at the start, but it turned ugly over the years. More resentment.
She sees her chance when Ned tells her about Robert, and organises a hunting accident, placing herself as Queen Regent. Of course, this also defends her children, who she definitely does love. It's just a question of if she loves her children more than she loves power and control (because she has had basically none all of her life, although she has obviously led a relatively privileged life otherwise). Finally, she has the power. Well... not really, because Joffrey starts a war and then Tyrion and the Small Council bypass her, then Tywin completely sidelines her again.
Tywin dies and she's left on her own to rule, but is incapable of doing so because she was never taught how to. She employs a bunch of yes-men to keep her ego satisfied.
It backfires, spectacularly. Kevan takes power, dies, and leaves... who, exactly, to pick up the reins? She has definitely been set up as a plot point for the destruction of House Lannister's power, but it's her motivations that are what I'm discussing.
Also, if medieval Europe is the main framework for Westerosi society, it's worth noting that peasant women often enjoyed more agency than highborn women, and had relative freedom until their marriages. That doesn't mean they weren't being raped, or killed, but they had the agency to make their own choices. Cersei never had that.
I mean, her backstory is all about patriarchy, and her actual pov chapters are about how that screws up everything, for her and, basically the whole realm, later. That aspect can definitely be applied to the real world.
Post by
Gone
I think her and Robert attempting to love each other in the beginning was strictly made up for the show. IIRC in the books they both reviled each other from the beginning. And Idk how comfortable I am saying that Robert raped her. Perhaps in the sense that she didn't want to be with him at all and still had to sleep with him, but idk if it ever happened in the sense where she says "no" and he just holds her down and does it anyway. There was that one chapter where she flashes back to saying something like "you hurt me last night" to which he apologizes and she cracks him in the face with a cup or something a breaks his tooth, but that whole situation was kind of vague and there are different ways you can interpret that.
I also don't really agree with your claim that Cersei is in any way "clever" and her incompetence as a ruler is the result of her patriarchal upbringing. I think Tywin said it best in that last episode. "It's not because you're a woman, it's because you're not as clever as you think you are.
Look at the other "rulers" she is being compared with in ADDC and ADWD. Danerys has never had any kind of training as a leader, and she still more or less fits right into the role as soon as she takes on the mantel of queen. Jon has never been trained to take on any kind of a leadership role either, but he still manages to hold the Nights Watch together.
Now I'm not saying that those two are perfect leaders. Danerys disappeared on the back of a dragon, and the other one got
Julius Caesar-ed
after trying to make a power play with the wildlings (he did it for noble reasons, but still).
But my point is that they are both still more effective leaders than Cersei, they both had less training and preparation, they were both younger, and most importantly they were both able to put their egos aside and make decisions that were for the greater good.
Taken by itself, AFFC is practically a story solely dedicated to Cersei's incompetence as a leader.
Post by
Patty
Daenerys kind of has a lot more freedom as a woman than Cersei did at that age, though. I'm always annoyed at the fact that they changed the wedding night into Dany being raped, because that's not how it happened at all.
Also, Daenerys and Cersei at 13(?) were completely different people. Daenerys was really quite timid at the very start of AGOT, scared of "waking the dragon", and eventually gains her own agency. Cersei was ambitious but never got over that or achieved anything - she got slighted when she thought she was to marry Rhaegar, and then gets shipped off to Robert. Daenerys is treated much better by Drogo than Cersei ever was by Robert, and Daenerys has a kind of humility to her Cersei would never have to be familiar with. By that, I mean Daenerys' position was never secure, she probably slept on the streets some nights, whereas Cersei always had Casterly Rock. This makes them both have very different views of the world, and different aims of what they would do with power. The main difference between Daenerys and Cersei is their intention behind being a Queen. Daenerys considers the smallfolk, and cares about the people. Cersei just wants power to spite everyone who kept her from it, and because she is ambitious.
Also, Daenerys was a khaleesi and a conqueror before she became a Queen, so had experience in positions of power. Cersei... didn't, quite so much.
About the Tywin quote, I think it's true... to an extent. But I don't think Tywin would ever admit his faults as a father to himself, let alone to Cersei. It's like how he never acknowledges how %^&*ty he has been to Tyrion. That's who Tywin is, so we have to take that with a pinch of salt.
I'm not disputing she's a bad ruler, I'm merely pointing out what led her to be bad at it in the first place.
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