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A Game of Thrones
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Post by
Hyperspacerebel
But Cersei is every bit what CATDC said she was, both ^&*!%y and useless. I'll also add narcissistic, paranoid, and generally an inept ruler.
That's what I'm talking about. I love that about her. There's no hidden heroism. There's no understandable evil explanation. She's just a near-sighted, selfish, often stupid, person who can't even stand up to her own son. That's a deeper and more real character right there than half the characters ever written anywhere.
Post by
Gone
He never said she was a bad character, just %^&*!y and useless. Not that I agree all the women in the series besides Arya are one of those two things. I like Brienne, Asha, Theon, Osha, Sansa, Ygritte, Danerys... well sometimes Danerys...
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Well the conversation was about liking characters. It makes me sad that people don't like characters like that. Those are the characters that make tv, books, and comics for me.
Post by
Gone
The thing about villains is that, a lot of the time you aren't supposed to like them. They can be a good character, but still not likable. To me, a great villain is one that the author just makes you
hate
.
Post by
Gone
So apparently the guy who plays Gregor Clegane in season two also played Madam Maxine in the fourth Harry Potter movie...
WAT?
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
The thing about villains is that, a lot of the time you aren't supposed to like them. They can be a good character, but still not likable. To me, a great villain is one that the author just makes you
hate
.
And I take the complete polar opposite view. The more I'm lead to hate a character, the more I feel like the author is painting a one-sided picture, and the less I feel like I can take the abstract, omniscient narrator at his word. (And the same with heroes too.)
Post by
Gone
The thing about villains is that, a lot of the time you aren't supposed to like them. They can be a good character, but still not likable. To me, a great villain is one that the author just makes you
hate
.
And I take the complete polar opposite view. The more I'm lead to hate a character, the more I feel like the author is painting a one-sided picture, and the less I feel like I can take the abstract, omniscient narrator at his word. (And the same with heroes too.)
It depends on the character I guess. To use the example of The Mountain, I love the character, but I hate the person. Does that make any sense?
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
It makes sense. I just find that if I understand a character's true motives and beliefs (as with a well written character), I can't hate him.
Post by
Gone
I guess it depends on the villain in question, and just what caliber of evil the author is going for. Bad guys like the Hound, Jamie Lannister, The Greyjoys, I start to like all of them once you learn their motives. But characters like the Mountain and Ramsay Bolton who are just made out to be sadistic, cruel, psychopaths, it's harder to empathize with.
Post by
Patty
^ Did he really just defend Cersei?
I used a Cersei reaction because Cersei has the most fabulous reactions.
To be honest, I love most the main women in Westeros. With possibly the exceptions of Lysa Arynn (definitely, I cannot connect with her on any level and find it hard to empathise with her no matter how many times I read the books or meta on her), Ygritte (I never got attached to her in the books or show), Asha Greyjoy (I don't like any of the Ironborn, though she is probably one of the best of them) and Arianne Martell (I just don't feel hugely passionately about her either way, she's got potential but seems in TWOW to have not learned her lesson from AFFC/ADWD).
That doesn't mean I woobiefy Cersei, or think she is a wonderful person. Quite on the contrary. She is a fascinating character who has been screwed over by the male world one too many times and went wrathful to the nth degree. Her primary desire, throughout the series, is power. I empathise with her, to a point.
Post by
Gone
Haha I know, I was just poking a bit of fun at her being one of those characters that so many people just love to hate.
Post by
Patty
Haha I know, I was just poking a bit of fun at her being one of those characters that so many people just love to hate.
Yeah, although I'm less love to hate and more stanning her, flaws and all (because lbr, her flaws are what make her so interesting). I think the general misogyny of a large portion of the book
and
show fandoms just make me love characters like Cersei, Sansa, Catelyn and Melisandre even more.
Conversely, I also cannot wait to see the evil vagina comments when, as rumoured,
Melisandre taps Gendry.
Post by
Gone
Meh, I still don't like Cat or Robb. Usually when I say this, the reaction I get from my friends is something along the lines of
HOW THE HELL CAN YOU LIKE THE IRONBORN BUT NOT ROBB, WTF IS WRONG WITH YOUR BRAIN!
It's not even a love/hate thing like with Cersei, who is just meant to be a
queen %^&*! killer bee type of character
kind of rotten character. Nah, those two are meant to be good characters, but I just can't help but revile them and their decision making capabilities.
/rant
I like Melisandre a lot as well, although I'm surprised she still thinks Stannis is the "chosen one" now that more and more of the "normal" non clairvoyant people are learning about Danerys.
I'm still holding out hope that we get to see Sandor again. My head tells me that Martin ended his story with the whole gravedigger thing, and just left it up to the fans to decide his fate, but my heart tells me we may see him again.
Post by
Patty
I don't know, I think the gravedigger will bring him full-circle. If he
does
come back, I sincerely hope it's not to make SanSan a bigger... thing. I loved their dynamic, don't get me wrong, but never in any kind of romantic context.
Also, I think Jon fits Azor Ahai more than Daenerys does. She's more like the PWWP.
And whilst less bold/caps, I kind of agree with them. :p I liked Robb and Catelyn much more in the books than in the show, because it shows that the writers can't write Catelyn.
IF ONLY SHE HAD LOVED JON SNOW!
Then none of this would have happened and all the Starks would be happy in Winterfell, I'm sure. To be honest, even though Robb is pretty, he should really just shut up.And I
want
him to die in the RW just so we can't see him being a dumbass and projecting all the blame on Catelyn or Edmure. That said, if they make the RW into ~Robb and Talisa's tragedy~ instead of Catelyn's, well... I will be super pissed.
Post by
Gone
Well Melsandre's reasoning for backing Stannis, IIRC, was because he lived on Dragonstone, and she believed him to be the heir to the throne, and the prophecy said that he would "wake the dragons from the stone." Danerys fits that better because she literally, woke dragons from stone eggs. Although Jon has the whole 'child of ice and fire' thing going on, if the rumors about his parentage are true.
I don't buy the pioused Clegane for a second, but it kind of fits as a counter to Franken-Gregor. Not that I think we are ever going to see the resolution we wanted with those two, but one can hope.
I actually found Cat more sympathetic in the show.
Show Cat to Jon: I want you to leave.
Book Cat to Jon: Get out of my sight bastard!
Plus she always just seemed ultra judgmental of everything and everyone around her. To me she seemed to take on a giligan type role and just made everything worse. "Hey Ned, trust Littlefinger, he would never betray you" "Hey Brienne, free Jamie Lannister and take him back to Kings Landing now so his father can develop his talents as a wedding planner!"
With Robb it's the opposite, I thought he was much more likable in the book. For one, his reasons for marrying Jeyne Westerling were
somewhat
more noble, although the cynic in me thinks he was just making an excuse for mommy when he said he was trying to protect her honor. Second of all, he was like 15, so many of the mistakes he made are more understandable, given that he was a boy, forced into a mans role.
Post by
Patty
Well, I think they've just made Catelyn and Robb
both
look more stupid, irrational and unsympathetic.
For example, the reasons for Jaime being released and Robb sleeping with Jeyne in the books were because Bran and Rickon were officially dead. Sansa and Arya were literally the only heirs left for Robb, and Catelyn also wanted to be with her remaining children in that time. That makes her decision to swap Jaime for the heirs of the king more practical as well as more understandable. It also makes Robb's subsequent marriage to Jeyne more noble than YOLO, which is essentially the show justification.
Michelle Fairley has also recently stated in an interview that this season, she spends a lot of time alone, i.e. she is being punished much more for her actions than she was in the books. If I'm right, this implies that the showrunners feel that Catelyn should be punished more for her actions, yet it feels much more hollow when compared to Robb breaking his loyalty to all the men who elected him as king by getting married because amputation made him horny. The whole Jon Snow scene with Talisa just illustrates that the showrunners view that her lack of love for Jon Snow is irredeemable, and go further by adding the whole "I wished him to die, then I wished him to live, and then I sucked as a mother" thing, which I do not think was in the books at all.
Catelyn made some bad miscalculations, yes, but the Littlefinger she knew was infatuated with her (still true), and I think she simply underestimated just how deep down those feelings still went. Tyrion was the logical conclusion from the evidence she had, even if we as the readers knew better all along and that ended up being Petyr all along, too.
Post by
Gone
Oh I know what her reasons for freeing Jamie Lannister were, I just don't find them a valid excuse. I feel like it was the selfish decision that wound up coming back to bite them all in a big way (on top of several other dumb decisions that led to the you know what).
Speaking of Jamie Lannister, Idk if I've mentioned this on this forum before, but do you think that he might actually be the one who will wind up strangling Cersei? Maggie the frog said it would be the little brother, which she obviously thought meant Tyrion, but she also makes a point of saying that Jamie was born before her. Plus I think of that song that Tyrion had in his head when he was choking Shae with a chain made of golden hands, "She was his secret treasure, she was his shame and bliss," and then later "hands of gold are always cold, but a woman's hands are warm."
Who has a gold hand? And who has a woman who was his secret treasure, and both a shame and bliss to him?
Post by
Adamsm
Well started watching the tv show today, and picked up the first book; unsure at this point if I'll picking up the other four yet.
Post by
Gone
Took ya long enough
Post by
Gone
So far this season is pretty underwhelming to me. The biggest problem seems to be that each character/story is only getting about 5-10 minutes of screen time per episode. So why, WHY, are they bogging down an already time constricted story with stupid filler about Pods amazing bedroom skills and Varys?
I will say this though, filler or not, I almost choked up when Theon said his real father lost his head at Kings Landing.
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