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Forsaken Paladins
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Post by
200565
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Vaeku
The problem with everyone's reasoning of Tauren Paladins is you say they don't wield the Light, they wield the Sun. Which you say is what the priests wield as well.
There's one problem: in Blizzard lore, it's stated that paladins wield the Light and the Light only. Priests are the class that wield different powers based on race. Most priest races wield the Light, but night elves wield the power of the Moon/Elune, while Forsaken wield the Shadow, and Trolls wield something similar to voodoo.
So, while it's possible that tauren priests can wield the powers of the Sun (as an antithesis to the night elves), the tauren paladins have to wield the power of the Light, unless that retconned (and we don't know the specifics yet so we can't say).
My interpretation of those tauren who are discussing the balance of things and how night elves exclusively (almost) worship Elune, is that they will wield the Light under the name of the Sun, and not wield the power of the Sun as something similar to Elune, where it's different than the Light. Since as I said before, paladins specifically wield the Light, and nothing else.
With that said, Forsaken cannot be paladins since paladins wield the power of the Light, and if a Forsaken somehow managed to learn the powers of the Light, using it, even to direct it at someone, would destroy them. Plus, the Forsaken are named so because not only did their friends and family and old allies (Alliance) forsake them, but so did the Light (since they are undead).
Post by
Patty
3 virtues of the Light.
3 virtues of the Cult.
Note the inherent similarities; and the difference. Many of the forsaken were people of Lordaeron, who were very,
very
religious as a whole. If they could wield the light, or atleast still accept their virtues; they would follow it. Now, you may argue that they can wield the Light, but do not accept the virtues.
However,
here we have a devout follower of the Light who has been abandoned by it and refuses to worship the shadow; still wearing Holy Light robes. He obviously has some compassion, because he saves a couple of humans from the forsaken's testing. Therefore, we can assume that even if people's will was strong enough to accept the virtues of the Light - they can still not wield it.
Now, we have something interesting
here
.
Forsaken player characters and NPCs are for most intents and purposes considered to be "humanoids" in World of Warcraft due to gameplay reasons and do not share all the characteristics of other undead. This is not the case according to the lore in other sources where Forsaken share all the characteristics of standard Undead.
As for undead and paladin relationships
....
They are particularly potent against undead, as these creatures threaten the goodly races and the Holy Light burns them terribly.
To add some more weight to my argument, although he is not undead,
Farseer Nobundo
was a devout paladin. As soon as he was corrupted by a warlock with high amounts of fel magic - the light would not answer his calls. This is illustrated in the
Unbroken
tale.
Now, how is this related to the forsaken and paladins? Quite simply, necromancy was first used by the warlocks of the Old Horde, who used fel magic. They were taught necromancy by the
Nathrezim
, who work for the Burning Legion. The Lich King was created by the Burning Legion. His necromancers used the Burning Legion's fel magics. Therefore, when the forsaken were exposed to a high amount of fel magics (Reanimated by necromancers) - the Light would not answer their calls.
Post by
Orranis
The difference is Blizzard goes "It would be f*cking stupid not to give Forsaken, the inventors of shadow, priests." Then another guy goes "Well... We can't just take away the holy spec..." another goes "Well, we have a compromise. Give them it all, and let it break lore a little." However, the other one is "Hey guys, let's break lore because we f*cking feel like it!"
you don't have to get so caustic. it really isn't like that, and
plenty of people
agree with me- and plenty with you. but i guess the people who think forsaken paladins are a better implementation than tauren paladins all just thick-headed fools who have no idea about what warcraft really is, and all our thoughts on lore are unsound and invalid simply because yours exist.
my point was that you literally said lore and the game have nothing to do with each other. i completely disagree. your argument is based on the "lore fact" that the undead cannot wield the light in any way whatsoever. i don't think that's true in the context of the way the game is a part of warcraft too.
i have been conceding points and seriously considering your arguments, but i don't think the same courtesy has been extended.
it already seems that both of you think it's a true "lore-rape" that undead priests exist, even with the fancy lore explanation of 'twisting the light with shadow.' interesting.
the story of warcraft continually changes. the game has an impact on that change, whether you like it or not. it's just as conceivable for the forsaken to reclaim the ability to become paladins... even if they do it with the same method as their priests. hell, the blood elves "stole" the light. STOLE it. from a naaru that they trapped in their capital city... and all the while they run around dalaran making nice with the naaru there. does that even make sense? well, it's official blizzard lore, so i sure hope you're as strict on sticking to that as you are about everything else. as well as sticking to the strange way they managed to hold on to the light *in other ways* after the naaru in silvermoon disappeared because they 'let it go' or something. because of the nature of WoW, gameplay and implementations that blizzard make are developing current warcraft lore.
i see the arguments for tauren paladins. i ALSO see arguments for forsaken paladins, which are just as conceivable, and
arguably
more conceivable, sensible, preferable to some people over holy cows, in ways that aren't as goofy as 'stealing the light' or worshiping the sun.
The thing you linked is about what would make a better storyline, it never once reckon the actual lore of the game. The idea is that it's the Noble Savage. The paladin like shaman. The Sun Walker. Personally, if Forsaken got back the light, it would killed pretty much the whole idea of them being a cursed race. Might as well make Sylvanas a happy go lucky tree hugging ranger once more. The Tauren are not Paladins, they are Sun Walkers. There is a difference. Also, against the whole "Your destroying Tauren culture, why would they become Paladins?" Why did the light wielding Draenei begin Shamanism? Moot point.
I don't think you're truly considering my points, because then you wouldn't argue against them. Tauren Paladins aside, it is simply impossible for Undead to become Paladins.
I'm not calling you stupid, I just think your putting your personal wants in front of lore consistency. I would hate to see a Forsaken Paladin.
Post by
Gnub
it already seems that both of you think it's a true "lore-rape" that undead priests exist, even with the fancy lore explanation of 'twisting the light with shadow.' interesting.
I never said that. I said Undead PALADINS would be a lore rape, because priests makes sense - paladins doesn't. No reason to stuff words down our throats.
Post by
Morec0
Undead Priests: Discipline and Shadow makes sense. Holy is a
game mechanic
.
Paladain are all holy
. And Warcraft is still based around Lore. If 2/3 fit, then it works.
Of course I don't know where this discussion is at. So ignore my comment at will.
Post by
Orranis
it already seems that both of you think it's a true "lore-rape" that undead priests exist, even with the fancy lore explanation of 'twisting the light with shadow.' interesting.
I never said that. I said Undead PALADINS would be a lore rape, because priests makes sense - paladins doesn't. No reason to stuff words down our throats.
Forsaken priests
Forsaken who once followed the tenets of the Holy Light often alter their philosophy upon their transformation. Forsaken have abandoned religion, just as they believe it abandoned them. Lost and hurt, these priests founded a new religion based on a self-centered version of their former faith. Dubbed the Forgotten Shadow, this philosophy centers around self-empowerment and a desire to balance life with death. While they can no longer use the Holy Light, and have since learned how to use the shadow; the priests teach that there must be a balance between light and shadow, and members must learn the Light as well, but never forget they were born from the shadow.
Troll priests
The troll priesthoods are, much like the shamans and the witch doctors of the various troll tribes, spiritual advisers and caretakers. With trolls being naturally superstitious and spiritual, it allows the various troll priests to manipulate the spiritual energy of the world in order to either heal or harm their targets. The various energies that the troll priests draw can come from various sources, be it Loa spirits, voodoo magic or the target itself. Drawing upon these energies, the troll priests either mend or harm, depending on which blessing the spiritual entity bestows. Arguably, in World of Warcraft, troll priests can be considered witch doctors in a cultural perspective, in equal terms with the shamans.
Tauren priests
This article or section includes speculation, observations or opinions possibly supported by lore or by Blizzard officials. It should not be taken as representing official lore.
In Cataclysm, the Tauren will have the ability to become priests. It is possible that they use the light of the Sun in their spells, as opposed to the Holy Light. This is similar to how the Night Elves use the power of the Moon, their goddess Elune, instead of the Holy Light.
Gnome priests
This article or section includes speculation, observations or opinions possibly supported by lore or by Blizzard officials. It should not be taken as representing official lore.
With the announcement of the Cataclysm expansion, Gnome healers will finally become playable. Gnome priest NPCs (such as the Holdout Medic in Gnomeregan and the North Fleet Medic in Howling Fjord) have existed in Azeroth for some time, but the destruction brought on by Deathwing will most likely inspire many more Gnomes to turn to their allies and adopt devotion to The Light.
Basically our point. "Priest" just means the lead worshipper in a faith.
Post by
Adamsm
@ orranis: undead physically unable to wield the light- except there are undead priests. however you explain their ability to wield the light, it can cross over to explaining why there could be forsaken paladins.
and i do have arguments for forsaken paladins... not only did they come up in my arguments against the tauren, but i've raised them independently of that as well.
@ patty: now you're just mincing words. yes, they are 'undead' in that sense. and people refer to them as 'undead' all the time. but what i meant (and what you were even talking about) was their consideration as 'undead'
in terms of the mechanics of the game
, i.e. that they'd be susceptible to fear evil, shackle, exorcism, etc. they aren't anymore, and i think the change is representative not only as a balance of gameplay, but also as a manifestation of their true difference from the scourge, who are also technically 'undead'.
Game mechanics nothing more; back in the early days of WoW, an Alliance Paladin could just decimate a Forsaken because he counted as an Undead, which meant all the spells and abilities did extra damage to them.
As for them ever becoming Paladins; I doubt it, the Forsaken have a hatred of the Scarlet Crusade, who are mostly Paladins and Holy Priests, and considering what they've done to them over the last few years, I doubt the Undead race would pick up the powers of their worst enemies.
Also, some food for thought; in Lore, when a Forsaken is injured, he doesn't go to a priest to be 'healed', he goes to a Necromancer or a Restorer to repair his injuries; ie sewing arms back on, stitching up the flesh and the like. Only a 'living' being can call on the Light, the undead don't for the most part (yes, I know, Zielek is out there, but that's a different aspect of it completely).
Post by
Morec0
(yes, I know, Zielek is out there, but that's a different aspect of it completely).
The aspect of Zielek is that he has unshakable faith in the Light and his body is just controlled by the Scourge - and they can use his holy powers that way.
The problem is that the Forsaken
hate
the Light. They say it abandoned them and so they abandoned it (holy priests again being a game mechanic).
Post by
200565
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
aFluffyFartBall
forsaken pallys... HAHA,,, does that mean seeing as they are Undead they could in thoery 'rez' themselfs?
Post by
Joemaster240
It seems like those that were once paladins could, in theory, even in death retain there ability and power over the light and remain a paladin.
Post by
Orranis
It seems like those that were once paladins could, in theory, even in death retain there ability and power over the light and remain a paladin.
Umm... Whose theory, and what evidence?
Post by
Monday
It seems like those that were once paladins could, in theory, even in death retain there ability and power over the light and remain a paladin.
Umm... Whose theory, and what evidence?
Only Sir Zeliek.
Post by
Vaeku
forsaken pallys... HAHA,,, does that mean seeing as they are Undead they could in thoery 'rez' themselfs?
Hahahaha...
No.
It seems like those that were once paladins could, in theory, even in death retain there ability and power over the light and remain a paladin.
Umm... Whose theory, and what evidence?
Only Sir Zeliek.
Wouldn't be the first time Blizz has made a race/class combo based on one figure.
Draenei warlocks are more believable than forsaken paladins.
Post by
Adamsm
It seems like those that were once paladins could, in theory, even in death retain there ability and power over the light and remain a paladin.
Umm... Whose theory, and what evidence?
Only Sir Zeliek.
Wouldn't be the first time Blizz has made a race/class combo based on one figure.
Draenei warlocks are more believable than forsaken paladins.
Yeah, but the only reason Zeliek has his powers is because he has his mind, but beyond that, he has no control over his body; how that would translate into a playable class is unknown; and actually, Zeliek is more of a priest then a paladin; he spams a holy spell like Smite after all.
Post by
Orranis
It seems like those that were once paladins could, in theory, even in death retain there ability and power over the light and remain a paladin.
Umm... Whose theory, and what evidence?
Only Sir Zeliek.
Wouldn't be the first time Blizz has made a race/class combo based on one figure.
Draenei warlocks are more believable than forsaken paladins.
Yeah, but the only reason Zeliek has his powers is because he has his mind, but beyond that, he has no control over his body; how that would translate into a playable class is unknown; and actually, Zeliek is more of a priest then a paladin; he spams a holy spell like Smite after all.
To me, Zeliek just seems like a screw up one Blizzards part, counter to everything they had said before. There is more examples of against then for. Also, does anyone know if Zeliek really died? Or is he Arthas style Death Knight?
Post by
Adamsm
To me, Zeliek just seems like a screw up one Blizzards part, counter to everything they had said before. There is more examples of against then for. Also, does anyone know if Zeliek really died? Or is he Arthas style Death Knight?
He's dead; you see it in the Ashbringer comic; they cut him almost in half, but due to the necromancy magic, he comes back; same as Thane from a crushed head and the Lady from a sword in the face. Honestly, if you look at them though; the Lady and he are opposite sides of a coin; she's a shadow priest he's the holy priest, with Thane being a pure warrior, while the Baron is the standard Death Knight heh.
Post by
Orranis
To me, Zeliek just seems like a screw up one Blizzards part, counter to everything they had said before. There is more examples of against then for. Also, does anyone know if Zeliek really died? Or is he Arthas style Death Knight?
He's dead; you see it in the Ashbringer comic; they cut him almost in half, but due to the necromancy magic, he comes back; same as Thane from a crushed head and the Lady from a sword in the face. Honestly, if you look at them though; the Lady and he are opposite sides of a coin; she's a shadow priest he's the holy priest, with Thane being a pure warrior, while the Baron is the standard Death Knight heh.
Comic. That explains it... They mess up a lot in comics.
Post by
Adamsm
To me, Zeliek just seems like a screw up one Blizzards part, counter to everything they had said before. There is more examples of against then for. Also, does anyone know if Zeliek really died? Or is he Arthas style Death Knight?
He's dead; you see it in the Ashbringer comic; they cut him almost in half, but due to the necromancy magic, he comes back; same as Thane from a crushed head and the Lady from a sword in the face. Honestly, if you look at them though; the Lady and he are opposite sides of a coin; she's a shadow priest he's the holy priest, with Thane being a pure warrior, while the Baron is the standard Death Knight heh.
Comic. That explains it... They mess up a lot in comics.
Not really; and Arthas was dead by the time he put on the helmet at the Frozen throne.
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