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Forsaken Paladins
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Post by
Monday
This is for all my good friends in the
Paladin forums
who insist that Forsaken Paladins are more viable in Lore than Tauren.
Please, enlighten us.
I myself that Forsaken can NOT be paladins.
Post by
Gnub
Basically: the Holy Light and the Undead doesn't quite work well together.
Undead Priests? They're able to be that, because they're using the shadow. Somehow like the inverse of Draenei priests.
Post by
200565
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Patty
The forsaken are undead lore-wise, they were changed to humanoids for balance.
Similarly, lore-wise every race can speak common - but the Alliance only speak common in-game.
Post by
200565
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
for anyone who's going to respond to this thread it would be a boon for all of us carrying over if you could kindly read the thread on it in the paladin forum, because we've had a good bit of conversation about it over there.
edit: i'm just going to throw some of it into this thread for ease.
worship the Earth Mother, who has two eyes. One is the moon=Druidic Powers. The other is the Sun=Paladin/Priest powers.
i disagree with you on the count that the Sun = Paladin/Priest powers. yes, while literally, the sun is a source of light, i really don't think that it's same "light" that paladins and priests care about. it's a related trope, but not a direct connection. of course, a sunny day represents good moreso than a dark night would, but the "Light" is more like a spiritual light, one that isn't just about illuminating the world literally. when i think inner fire and holy light, i'm not thinking sunlight- i'm thinking of a spiritual essence infused in the paladin or priest that is wholly good.
of course, blizzard may go the route of saying that this is the tauren's interpretation of light from the sun, it seems a relatively sensible one, but still, in my opinion, not as sensible as letting forsaken be the new paladins on the block.
funden, to respond to your last reply in the thread on in the paladin forum:
They were actually originally undead until Blizz changed it because Paladins were raiding Undercity and having a great time.
And game mechanics=/=lore. A pally can rezz someone, but in WoW lore resurrections are extremely rare.
and just as a reminder, this is part of what i said:
second, you bringing up your forsaken priest, shadow magic, cult of forgotten shadow argument again just made me understand it even less. beginning the sentence with "game mechanics aside" doesn't really help at all, because ... you can't put them aside? exactly for the same reason that the forsaken we can play don't count as undead. yes, it's just another way that blizzard managed to explain a complication away, but retconning can be done well, and it can be done badly. tauren paladin: bad retconning. forsaken paladin: salvageable retconning.
your point actually helps me, i think. i recognize that game mechanics are not lore, but there is a dynamic relationship between the two. sometimes the game mechanics don't quite match up with the lore; ragnaros comes back every week; players fight in BGs standing over their skeletons; a kobold magically apparates on top of the one you just killed. there is the world of theory- lore- and the world of practice- the game. because there is the reality of the game, we have to take it into account, no matter how much it irks us, because it does affect the lore of the whole universe of warcraft. in fact, part of the reason the lore even exists is because warcraft: orcs and humans and its successors were so popular. of course the designers had some in mind when they made the game up, but what i mean is that the game's popularity drove players to become so interested as to start... writing books, for example- books whose protagonists would go on to become the leader of the kirin tor.
i don't know about you, but when blizzard introduced draenei (whom i affectionately refer to as spacegoats) by explaining to us that they
crash landed onto azeroth in their- and i quote- "
trans-dimensional ship
"
, i thought it was a typical april fool's joke come on the wrong date. even if you don't think this an apt example my point is this:
because of gameplay, in order to keep its customers happy, blizzard often has to introduce new features- sometimes by trying to jam a square peg into a circle hole- in order to keep people playing. they needed a new race, and this is how they brought it about... like i said, there is good retconning and bad retconning (or, salvageable retconning).
because of gameplay, blizzard had to twist the lore around to explain that the playable undead weren't
actually
undead. i remember when the forsaken were considered undead, i played one in 1.0. i also remember using plainsrunning on my tauren in beta, which was definitely a cool injection of lore into gameplay (mind you, lore that existed because of the creation of tauren for wc3), but they took it out. but the thing is, explaining that the forsaken had redeemed themselves and fought for a different reason, under the leadership of sylvanas, actually fit in pretty nicely with the existing lore.
and so we come back to the original point. tauren paladins never existed before this point in WoW, and neither did forsaken paladins- but i think forsaken being able to become paladins makes more sense than tauren becoming paladins. forsaken aren't undead anymore; they can and do use the light all the time; etc. etc. tauren worship nature for its own harmony and goodness- in a way, the unity and balance of nature is their own kind of spiritual essence, and i think that the conce
You've argued against Tauren Paladins, but not for Forsaken Paladins. The difference is that the Forsaken are physically unable to wield the light, while the only thing holding back Taurens was culture. It wasn't the social norm. But, as we can see by say, Zabbra Hex, there are some willing to go outside the bonds of their society.
My theory of Tauren-Light is similar to my views of Bronzebeard Dwarf Shamanism. They are practicing different arts, however the effect is the same, and thus they can be classified as the same class in game. In reality, a Sun Walker and a Paladin are totally different classes, with totally different philosophy, and they channel powers from totally different sources. However, whether it's the sun or the light, your flash heal is still a flash heal.
Post by
Patty
no, i would say that they are *forsaken* lorewise, a race/people/whatever which was once undead but has undergone a significant change. the change was big enough to impact the story of warcraft.
They're not alive. They're not dead. They are, thus, undead.
Post by
200565
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
The forsaken are undead lore-wise, they were changed to humanoids for balance.
Similarly, lore-wise every race can speak common - but the Alliance only speak common in-game.
no, i would say that they are *forsaken* lorewise, a race/people/whatever which was once undead but has undergone a significant change. the change was big enough to impact the story of warcraft.
What? Becoming a Forsaken has nothing to do with biology. It's a faction. If I'm a member of a brainwashed cult, but I find out what they're doing and quit, does that make me a different species to the cult?
Not to mention it is explicitly stated that the Forsaken cannot wield the light.
While they can no longer use the Holy Light and have since learned how to use the Shadow; the priests teach that there must be a balance between Light and Shadow, and members must learn the Light as well but to never forget they were born from the Shadow. However, it seems that they learn about the Light in order to better combat members who practice it, and defend against its undead damaging power.
Post by
200565
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
200565
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
@ orranis: undead physically unable to wield the light- except there are undead priests. however you explain their ability to wield the light, it can cross over to explaining why there could be forsaken paladins.
and i do have arguments for forsaken paladins... not only did they come up in my arguments against the tauren, but i've raised them independently of that as well.
You obviously forgot the last part of the quote. They must learn the philosophies of the light, that doesn't mean you can wield it. Undead Priests are Priests of the Shadow, Troll Priests are Voodoo Priests, etc. Talent "Specs" are just game mechanics, and have nothing to do with lore.
Post by
200565
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
What? Becoming a Forsaken has nothing to do with biology. It's a faction. If I'm a member of a brainwashed cult, but I find out what they're doing and quit, does that make me a different species to the cult?
i don't know what you mean. i didn't even bring up biology. when i said "significant change" i didn't necessarily mean that their physical race changed. but their mindset did. the scourge are under control of the lich king- the forsaken are not. i really don't get your point at all.
That their change has no impact on the ability to wield light. Their very soul would still burn with agony and their hands turn to ash, or whatnot.
Post by
200565
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gnub
@ orranis: undead physically unable to wield the light- except there are undead priests. however you explain their ability to wield the light, it can cross over to explaining why there could be forsaken paladins.
I'm pretty sure I explained that with my incredibly short post. They're shadow priests, the same way as draenei are holy priests.
@ patty: now you're just mincing words. yes, they are 'undead' in that sense. and people refer to them as 'undead' all the time. but what i meant (and what you were even talking about) was their consideration as 'undead'
in terms of the mechanics of the game
, i.e. that they'd be susceptible to fear evil, shackle, exorcism, etc. they aren't anymore, and i think the change is representative not only as a balance of gameplay, but also as a manifestation of their true difference from the scourge, who are also technically 'undead'.
No, it was merely gameplay. It would be stupidly ... stupid, if they were classified as Undead. Lorewise, they are Undead however. There's no arguing it I'm afraid, it's just the way it is.
Post by
200565
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Orranis
but orranis, we're talking about a change in-game. you're saying that lore has nothing to do with the game, and then you turn around and make lore-based arguments for tauren becoming paladins, or against forsaken becoming paladins.
lore DOES have to do with the game, that was my main point, and i think it's a strong one. they are definitely intertwined, even if in obtuse ways sometimes.
a new race is going to gain the ability to become paladins. that is a huge change of lore, no matter how you cut it. the game isn't entirely divorced from lore, it's impossible. i'm trying to justify my opinion that it makes more sense for forsaken to become paladins than it does for tauren.
i respectfully completely disagree with you that just because the forsaken are undead means that they cannot wield the light. there are thousands of undead priests playing WoW right now, and i think that counts for something. if you don't, then we're just bashing our heads against the wall arguing.
What? Look, it's kind of simple. Forsaken do not have the biological criteria to wield the light, tauren do. Even ignoring the whole Sun Walker argument, one can one can't.
Post by
Orranis
i know you explained it gnub. and i wasn't even disagreeing. i'm saying that if there is an explanation for why they can wield the light as priests- which orranis thinks is bunk- there is also an explanation for why they can wield it as paladins.
i get the undead distinction now.
The difference is Blizzard goes "It would be f*cking stupid not to give Forsaken, the inventors of shadow, priests." Then another guy goes "Well... We can't just take away the holy spec..." another goes "Well, we have a compromise. Give them it all, and let it break lore a little." However, the other one is "Hey guys, let's break lore because we f*cking feel like it!"
Post by
Gnub
i know you explained it gnub. and i wasn't even disagreeing. i'm saying that if there is an explanation for why they can wield the light as priests- which orranis thinks is bunk-
there is also an explanation for why they can wield it as paladins.
No, there isn't, and there hopefully never will be. It would be a true lore-rape.
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