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Recount needs to die.
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Post by
MikadoGG
Recount is one of the most important tools for a player to consider in a raiding situation. A good raid leader is always aware of all the useful information it provides. By useful information I don't just mean who's 1st on dps. If you don't know recount gives detailed data on almost every facet of combat, healing, damage dealing, tanking etc. As a damage dealer I like to check the data on recount after boss fights or wipes to see where I need improvement. It can be very uncomfortable for people who only pad their dps by screwing the team.
Just think of the info you can easily obtain from recount. It tells you if a healer is simply spamming one heal on the same target to lead on overall healing done while letting other people die. It tells you whether a dpser is ignoring snobolds on Beasts or adds on Anub or Blood beasts on Saurfang or any other such fight to pad their numbers. Yeah they might end up first on dps but they are screwing the team at the same time and recount shows this, clearly. Without recount it would be almost impossible to actually know who is attacking what and how much time they spend doing it, unless you stand there and watch that person.
It just seems to me that there are two problems with people and recount:
1. Morons who only rely on things like raw dps or overall healing data and spam it in groups and raids trying to prove they're leet.
2. People who are upset because they consistently underperform and do not like seeing proof of it.
Post by
JSchott
No. Even though flawed,it's the only way in-game I can recognize noobs. Also,remember,it has also the Dmg done meter and not only the dos meter
Much like Belt mentioned, you can't judge a player based on their damage. Gear gives damage, not skill. You can still have an ultra-geared player in your raid who has slow reflexes and doesn't pay attention (to anything else but his meter)--which is usually the case.
Recount can set a foundation or a standard for damage, such as certain fights that need a certain amount of DPS in a set time. But judging a player solely on the DPS meter would make you a much stupider player. What if that person is suffering from latency issues (common with the servers as of late)? What if he or she is crowd controlling and keeping mobs off of the healer when the tank isn't paying enough attention?
Recount, as well as GearScore, should only be used as a
very basic
form of a standard.
Look, if you or your raid leader is not watching the raid, his role, and the damage meters then it is you who is the "stupider player". And to everyone else who is against said tools, Recount and GearScore are pieces of the puzzle. They are good, and they are the beginning steps to find good players. "Oh but that 5k GS person you just invited could fail!" That's great, and true, but i'm not taking the 3500 GS person because his friends say he's awesome dps. I'm going to kick the 5k person and keep looking. If you're not geared for the place, don't QQ or brag about how leet you are, quit being a lazy ass and GET GEARED.
To sum, a perfect raid is a combo of GearScore, Recount, and OMG WATCHING stuff other then your 1 to = buttons.
Post by
292411
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Post by
91278
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
However that's not how most people use Recount. Mostly it's used for saying "look, I'm better than you, nub!". You're in a group with a combined dps of 10k. The boss was designed to be downed with a group dps of 3600 dps. Your group crushes the boss in seconds, and then epeen stroker #1 feels like pointing out that he made the biggest impact , even though he could have afk'ed and the boss would still be dead.
If that motivation made him try harder and put out more dps, then why is it a bad thing? The only people hurt by it are epeen strokers who didn't get top dps.
Is it, really? You must have been dozing when you read the rest of the thread and put that comment into that context.
Oh, wait, you didn't. Thanks for playing, though. When you're finished throwing sand around in the pit, we can move on.
Your silly personal attacks are getting old.
Post by
Fwibbles
Recount isn't going to cancel itself because some people on a forum don't like it.
Neither will Gearscore. It's the retards that misuse those that give them bad reputations.
Post by
73830
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
305956
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Crabby
Finally, I am done reading all the posts. Since i'm too lazy to post my thoughts and don't want to be flamed by posting them. I'll just say "people rely too much on addons"
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Guns don't kill people, nuh-uh. I kill people -- with guns!
NSFW
Post by
Miyari
Recount is fine. Judging DPS in 5-mans at the point in the game where every single pull is AoE spammed is silly. Gear does not automatically equal DPS, just raises the bar of capability. If your gear allows for your to be able to push 7k DPS, you should be doing close to 7k DPS - unless you're in a PuG, where the mostly inconsistent nature of combat encounters negatively affects overall DPS nearly every single time. There's nothing wrong with Recount, just people who don't know how to properly use it.
Post by
TinyPhreak
Recount shouldn't die. The argument between Hyperspacerebel and Sinespe however, is a different story.
@Hyperspacerebel: What Sinespe said was in context, if you can't understand that then that's too bad. Doesn't take a genius to understand that Sinespe hardly meant this:
You: Skill gives damage, gear does not.
Me: Um, that second part is wrong...gear does give damage.
You: SKILL SKILL SKILL SKILL SKILL
You see? Dodging the issue. I never once mentioned skill. My point is completely about gear, and you are dodging the question by not addressing it.
That you
didn't
mention skill means diddly squat since Sinespe
did
, and since what he/she mentioned is a part of the argument it can't be ignored just because you feel like making it limited enough to "win" said argument.
Here's the actual contextual meaning of what Sinespe wrote: By itself, skill will give you damage, whereas gear will not.
It's stupid to keep arguing something because someone didn't state something directly, when it's obvious that they did so indirectly. Looks like you're only after a discussion that can make you seem awesome.
Gear is a constant. Multiplied by a player's coefficient of skill, it gives their damage output. You can pull the required DPS for Icecrown in full iLvl213 epics if you're good. You can barely scrape by in 245 epics if you're bad.
That's what Sinespe was saying, indirectly, with the original statement -- clear as rain.
Let's say that skill and gear is a range between 0 and 100; With 0 on the scale meaning no gear at all (Gear), and standing still (Skill), and 100 meaning BiS items (Gear) and being active/avoiding fires etc. (Skill). Put the extremes in there and you'll get this:
Gear = 0
Skill = 100
Damage happens.
Gear = 100
Skill = 0
Damage doesn't happen.
-----------
Now, stop bickering over something as trivial as an indirect and contextual statement. >_<
As for the topic, I personally don't think it would hurt that much to remove the ability to post the Recount data to party-chat, and maybe have it limited to the raid-leader, if allowed in raids. Meh... it's really like other people have said, that it's just a tool and that it's the user that determines if it's going to be abused or not -- the author can't be blamed.
Post by
104395
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
@Hyperspacerebel: What Sinespe said was in context, if you can't understand that then that's too bad. Doesn't take a genius to understand that Sinespe hardly meant this:
Let's go back, shall we?
Here is the quote that started the whole thing:
Gear gives damage, not skill.
Sinespe disagreed with it --rightfully so. Here is the entirity of his/her post:
I'm sorry, but you have all three elements of this sentence the wrong way around:
Skill,
not gear
, gives damage.
Recount is fine. It is not broken in any way. It gives an accurate output if your performance, if you look at Damage Done rather than DPS. It also gives a tonne of other useful readouts besides damage. Interrupts, decurses, death logs. Useful information.
GearScore does nothing but say "HEY, U HAS GUD ITEM LEVELZ!
". More people need to use ElitistGroup -- the name is deceptive; it is anything but.
And the day I listen to WoW.com is the day I start believing FOX News.
Now, I bolded the two parts that pertain to gear. Do you see
any
indication of anything other than a flat out declaration that gear does not contribute to damage? I would like you to point me to the place --
in this post
-- where he/she said that gear
does
contribute to damage.
So, I read this post. I see a blatant falsity, and I reply to it.
Ummmm...no.
Get in your t10 and hit a mob.
Get in quest greens and hit a mob.
Oh look, your gear gave you damage!
I'm correcting the false claims that "gear ...give damage" and that "GearScore does nothing but say 'HEY, U HAS GUD ITEM LEVELZ!'"
I am not, as you and he/she are claiming, taking anything out of context. I reproduced the entire quote here and as you can see there is no caveat anywhere to be seen.
Now let's look at the response:
Gear is a constant. Multiplied by a player's coefficient of skill, it gives their damage output. You can pull the required DPS for Icecrown in full iLvl213 epics if you're good. You can barely scrape by in 245 epics if you're bad.
This is dodging the issue. Why? Because it has nothing to do with the problems I raised. How is skill even relevant to the claims that "gear ...give damage" and that "GearScore does nothing but say 'HEY, U HAS GUD ITEM LEVELZ'"? It's not.
and since what he/she mentioned is a part of the argument it can't be ignored just because you feel like making it limited enough to "win" said argument.
Here's what you and he/she don't understand: I agree with the skill part. Why would I bring up something I agree with? Skill is proportional to dps -- yes. I'm agruing against the part that I don't agree with.
Here's the actual contextual meaning of what Sinespe wrote: By itself, skill will give you damage, whereas gear will not.
That's what I'm arguing against! Why can't I argue against that?
Why do you think I keep stressing that I'm only talking about gear by itself, not skill and gear?
Post by
343569
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
skumbananer
I where tanking in a VOA pug where one mage did around 5k dps but died like 40secs in on koralon because of standing in fire. the other mage pulled of a modest 3k dps, but through the entire encounter requiring a minimum of healing.
Yet the mage with low dps got declined to roll for loot just cause his dps was lower, damage done didnt matter, just dps, recount needs to die:)
Post by
366971
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
TinyPhreak
So, I read this post. I see a blatant falsity, and I reply to it.
Ummmm...no.
Get in your t10 and hit a mob.
Get in quest greens and hit a mob.
Oh look, your gear gave you damage!
I'm correcting the false claims that "gear ...give damage" and that "GearScore does nothing but say 'HEY, U HAS GUD ITEM LEVELZ!'"
I am not, as you and he/she are claiming, taking anything out of context. I reproduced the entire quote here and as you can see there is no caveat anywhere to be seen.
The entire "correction" is unnecessary due to it being taken way too literally without any regard of case point.
Now let's look at the response:
Gear is a constant. Multiplied by a player's coefficient of skill, it gives their damage output. You can pull the required DPS for Icecrown in full iLvl213 epics if you're good. You can barely scrape by in 245 epics if you're bad.
This is dodging the issue. Why? Because it has nothing to do with the problems I raised. How is skill even relevant to the claims that "gear ...give damage" and that "GearScore does nothing but say 'HEY, U HAS GUD ITEM LEVELZ'"? It's not.
You like taking out the part where skill is mentioned whenever you quote in your own text. Maybe because without the skill part your protests would make a bit more sense. Right now you're just yelling about someone else not being overly specific.
Here's the actual contextual meaning of what Sinespe wrote: By itself, skill will give you damage, whereas gear will not.
That's what I'm arguing against! Why can't I argue against that?
Um... I gave you a reason why it would be silly to argue against it. Let me post it again.
Let's say that skill and gear is a range between 0 and 100; With 0 on the scale meaning no gear at all (Gear), and standing still (Skill), and 100 meaning BiS items (Gear) and being active/avoiding fires etc. (Skill). Put the extremes in there and you'll get this:
Gear = 0
Skill = 100
Damage happens.
Gear = 100
Skill = 0
Damage doesn't happen.
Read;
By itself
, skill will give you damage, whereas gear will not.
In your example, you said that he/she should put on gear of different levels, hit a mob, and see if there's any difference. Therein lies the problem. Hitting a mob is a degree of skill -- albeit hardly anything to mention, since a cabbage could probably do it if it had fingers to klick the mouse with -- but, it's some degree of skill nevertheless.
That
is the point (at least as I understood it).
Blergh. Look at that, you made me argue too. O well, I'll look at this as a lesson learned. Enjoy.
Post by
305956
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
113229
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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