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PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
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Patch 3.2.2 PTR Paladin Patch Notes
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Post by
zoomie
If it is going to increase stamina and strength then theres no reason it shouldn't increase agility too. That way it hits all the tanking stats. Even if its only .2 or .3% dodge. It is a huge boost, especially for people who use agility gems or when you have horn of winter and gift of the wild. Plus agility gems isn't just dodge. A 10 agility/15 stam gem is worth I think .19% crit and 20 armor aside from the dodge.
I don't know
the exact number but a 10 agility/15 stam gem is only about .03% - .05% less dodge than a 10 dodge/15 stam, depending on where you are at with diminishing returns.
Ohh, and I am a far better tank than anyone who posts on these forums.
Since you're so pure awesome juice, you do know that the dodge gained from agi suffers from the same DR that dodge from rating does?
Just wanted to make sure based on the bolded sentence in the quote (note the underlined words).
I haven't been able to get on since a few days after the patch released, but before the patch there was a point where gemming for agility gave more dodge than dodge rating. Even if dodge and agility give the same dodge now, if you have really high dodge you will get more bang for the buck with agility gems because of the increased crit and armor.
EDIT: I found this on main tankadin. This guy pretty much put it how I wanted to but couldn't think of the words.
"Absolutely speaking, the more dodge you already have (and thus the harder diminishing returns hit), the less dodge you'll "lose" from using agility over dodge and then the extra armour and crit start looking interesting."
Here is the URL
Main Tankadin
Post by
zoomie
as for why Sanc doesn't affect agility? simple: strength gets way more. unbuffed - even with leg enchant - you barely have over 100 AGI. strength, whether unbuffed or loaded, usually leads agility by more than 1000.
there's just no need to add a 3rd stat to Sanc, especially one that doesn't benefit nearly as much as the first 2. besides, if it matters that much, chances are you'll be getting Kings from another paladin anyway.
Why not get kings from another pally? Are you stupid? Do you realize that the entire reason blizzard made the change to blessing of sanctaury is so a prot paladin doesn't have to decide between kings and sanctuary if he is the only paladin in the party? You are saying to get kings from another paladin when this change is designed around the idea that there are no other paladins to get other buffs from. Believe it or not, there were quite a few dumbass prot paladins out there who didn't realize that having kings was better than sanc in most situations because having an extra 200+ stamina was better than having 3% damage reduction. Thats why they made this change. You can have the benefit of kings and sanc in one buff. When WOTLK first released there were idiots who were trying to tank malygos with health so low that a melee hit and arcane breath would kill them, but they would keep there 3% damage reduction buff instead of the 10% stamina buff. People are idiots, and blizzard is dumbing down the class with changes like this.
And I never said that I would rather take agility over strength so I don't know why you brought that into the discussion. But the fact is that agility is in fact a tanking stat because it increases damage mitigation, avoidance, and threat all in one.
Post by
383613
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
svirve
I haven't been able to get on since a few days after the patch released, but before the patch there was a point where gemming for agility gave more dodge than dodge rating. Even if dodge and agility give the same dodge now, if you have really high dodge you will get more bang for the buck with agility gems because of the increased crit and armor.
EDIT: I found this on main tankadin. This guy pretty much put it how I wanted to but couldn't think of the words.
"Absolutely speaking, the more dodge you already have (and thus the harder diminishing returns hit), the less dodge you'll "lose" from using agility over dodge and then the extra armour and crit start looking interesting."
Here is the URL
Main Tankadin
You know that the patch you're refering to is called 3.0. When DR was introduced to avoidance stats it was also introduced to the dodge gained from agility. If you havn't been able to be on since WotLK was released i'm pretty amazed by the fact that you've been able to kill algalon and not be stuck in tBC. And the most recent patch when the amount of dodge required from rating was increased by 13 rating made the scenario you're describing more likely.
They're absoloutely right on maintankadin.
Post by
TheJohan
If you read the entire thread on maintankadin (wich i did), you find that the 10dodge vs 10 agility discussion is moot. Dodge is better avoidance, agility is a liiitle better EH. It takes alot of dodgerating before the DR is so severe that you actually get benefits from gemming agility.
Atleast thats how i understood it. But still, it wont make or break ANY fight in the current content, if you have 0,01% more dodge or 0,01% more EH than you would have if you gemmed the other way around.
I gem dodge, because DR has not kicked in severly yet.
Post by
pezz
Paladins:
-cons
-HoR (3 target)
-HS (5 target)
-Holy Wrath (undead only)
-AS (3 target)
DKs:
-DnD
-Pest
-BB
-HB
-Army of the dead (20 min cd)
-Heart strike (to some extent)
Unfortunately I don't plan on jumping in on the flame war, but I just feel like pointing out some things on this list for Death Knights.
1. Pestilence does 0 damage when you just consider the button press. I know why this is up here, because you get a tick from diseases, and most of your abilities are going to hit harder with those diseases up, but as far as immediate 'the mob is now running past me to a healer' threat goes, even consecration is better than Pestilence, and that's saying a lot.
2. HS and HB are mutually exclusive. You will never have both of these in any build on any legal server.
3. BB is nothing to write home about unless you've already spent the time, GCDs, and possibly blood runes (if you used Pest) to get your diseases up on a target which may be running away from you. If a healer drops a big heal on you when you cast this, then, FP or not, that healer's going to overaggro you.
4. DK rotations are far more delicate than paladin rotations. You can pop a DnD and a BB for some snap threat if you like, but suddenly you either a) have enough runes to get your diseases up on one target or b) want to do OB or DS (for some reason) and don't have enough runes for diseases at all. Only UH DKs have an AoE RP dump, whereas paladins don't need any 'rotation filler', they just keep casting and casting. It's more difficult for a DK halfway through or at the end of his rotation to pick up more adds than it is for a paladin, who doesn't even have a point which is halfway through his rotation, really.
5. You didn't list the paladin's AoE taunt. We both have two taunts, but paladins can taunt a maximum of four mobs (if they're polite and orderly about who they all attack) versus a maximum of two on a DK.
Just thought I'd add some things to that list, in case this is beginning to read like a 'why paladins are better volume 37' kind of thing. This is also not a list of why you don't know what you're talking about, Piper. I'm sure you knew some of these things in the back of your mind, but remember, we need DKs spelled out for us on the paladin forums. In any case, either class can manage tanking adds, but I don't know if I'd say one was better than the other.
Except for Frost DK tanks. That's just OP.
Post by
zoomie
You know that the patch you're refering to is called 3.0. When DR was introduced to avoidance stats it was also introduced to the dodge gained from agility. If you havn't been able to be on since WotLK was released i'm pretty amazed by the fact that you've been able to kill algalon and not be stuck in tBC. And the most recent patch when the amount of dodge required from rating was increased by 13 rating made the scenario you're describing more likely.
They're absoloutely right on maintankadin.
I don't even know why I bother. People like you make me want to rip my hair out. I feel like I am talking to a brick wall here. It is like trying to explain dodge vs agility to Helen Keller.
Before the most recent patch, there was a point that you could be at where gemming for agility gave you more dodge than dodge rating. Yes agility suffered from diminishing returns, but if you had an assload of dodge then you would get MORE from agility because the diminishing returns on agility wern't as bad as dodge. Hence, the change to the agility to dodge conversion because blizzard knew there were some tanks who had brains (OBVIOUSLY NOT YOU) who were taking advantage of this.
Let me try to explain it in a way that makes it simple. People never gemmed for parry because the diminishing returns made it worse than gemming for dodge. Well if your dodge got up high enough, then dodge was the new parry and agility was the new dodge. You could swap out a dodge gem for an agility gem and see your dodge go UP because the diminishing returns on dodge from dodge rating were worse than the diminishing returns on dodge from agility.
If you don't understand that then go back to working at mcdonalds until you get common sense.
Post by
zoomie
5. You didn't list the paladin's AoE taunt. We both have two taunts, but paladins can taunt a maximum of four mobs (if they're polite and orderly about who they all attack) versus a maximum of two on a DK.
Not calling you out personally on this pezz, just something I want to clarify.
If you considder righteous defense an AOE taunt then you're stupid.
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=5209
and
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=1161
are AOE taunts, and VERY affective at dealing with freyas detonating lashers while doing 25 man 3 tree freya BTW.
But if you considder righteous defense an AOE taunt then your stupid. It would be nice if we could use it to taunt 3 seperate targets, but if there are 3 targets going after 3 seperate people, then it works like any other taunt. So basically paladins and DKs have the same kind of taunts, both have 1 taunt with a gimick. DK taunt has a lazy affect that pulls mobs in (and works in pvp), paladins have a taunt that pulls up to 3 mobs *IF* they are targeting the same person (sucks for casters). I think you recognized this part because of what you said in the ()'s
Like I said I'm not calling anyone here out, but I have seen far too many idiots who think a paladin isn't fast enough when there are 3 mobs running after 3 different people and the paladin can't pick them up. But they get yelled at and talked down upon because we have a taunt that 'taunts 3 mobs'.
Post by
TheJohan
I don't really understand this Pala VS DK add-tank-flame-war anyway.. I havent offtanked much, but ive run naxx10 and some ulduar25, and i have never ever lost aggro on an add as a paladin. People here make it sound like it is hard...?
I don't really care if a DK is potentially better at holding "area-aggro".
Because im doing my job, and well.. Thats all that matters. :)
Also worth noting, if your dps-mates are any good, they will target whatever add your targeting at the moment. If some hunter or rouge blows all trinkets and CDs on an add you just picked up.. well, they have it coming. (Unless taunt is off cd.)
Post by
pezz
RD IS a gimmick-style AoE taunt with a a handicap, sure. Challenging Roar/should are undeniably better. But more often or not, when a tank looses several mobs in any sort of situation where it actually matters that they be tanked, they'll all be heading for the same person.
Edit: Oh, and zoomie, svirve has common sense. He used it to notice you're saying that you haven't been able to play since a few days after 3.0 was released (pre-WotLK release, mind you), but also that you claim you downed Algalon.
See, this is the kind of thing that people with common sense really do notice.
Post by
svirve
I don't even know why I bother. People like you make me want to rip my hair out. I feel like I am talking to a brick wall here. It is like trying to explain dodge vs agility to Helen Keller.
Before the most recent patch, there was a point that you could be at where gemming for agility gave you more dodge than dodge rating. Yes agility suffered from diminishing returns, but if you had an assload of dodge then you would get MORE from agility because the diminishing returns on agility wern't as bad as dodge. Hence, the change to the agility to dodge conversion because blizzard knew there were some tanks who had brains (OBVIOUSLY NOT YOU) who were taking advantage of this.
Let me try to explain it in a way that makes it simple. People never gemmed for parry because the diminishing returns made it worse than gemming for dodge. Well if your dodge got up high enough, then dodge was the new parry and agility was the new dodge. You could swap out a dodge gem for an agility gem and see your dodge go UP because the diminishing returns on dodge from dodge rating were worse than the diminishing returns on dodge from agility.
If you don't understand that then go back to working at mcdonalds until you get common sense.
Actually i agree with you, why do i bother? Obviously you're just ignorant and fail extensively at comprehending the english language.
Like i said before the dodge gained from agility suffers from
the exact same
DR that dodge from rating does.
the dodge gained from agi suffers from the same DR that dodge from rating does
It has since DR on avoidance stats was introduced with the release of WotLK.
When DR was introduced to avoidance stats it was also introduced to the dodge gained from agility.
But since you cant wrap your head around this i'll try and explain it a bit more in depth.
The amount of agility a paladin needs for 1% dodge has always been the same at level 80, 59.88 agility.
The amount of dodge rating needed to gain 1% dodge was 32.79 before the most recent patch, but was changed to be on par with parry, so now you need 45.25 rating in order to get 1% dodge.
The DR still hits harder on parry but before DR they now require the same amount of rating for 1%.
Since dodge gained from agility suffers from
the exact same
DR that dodge from rating does it's impossible to gain more dodge from agility than from rating. Just because you always need more agility than dodge rating to get 1% dodge.
Lets put it into an example. If the DR on dodge is as high as 50% this would mean that you need 67,875 rating to gain 1% dodge, and 89,82 agility to gain 1% dodge. Actually a quite horrible example since it doesnt really work that way but i think you'll get the picture.
This means that before diminishing returns you get 75% as much dodge from agility as from dodge rating. What they were discussing on maintankadin (which i agreed with for that matter) was that at a certain point when the DR gets high enough you'll need so much dodge rating to only get 1% that the armor from agility starts to look more promising plus the fact that it also added a little bit of dodge (still less than what you'd get from rating).
And just so you know, the change to the dodge conversion only made it more promising to gem for agility than dodge since the gap in amount of item points for 1% dodge is smaller now than before, so i suggest you check your own brain before you state i lack one.
Post by
65116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
pezz
Don't worry Dobbel. I get the feeling you'll get your chance soon enough.
Post by
zoomie
Edit: Oh, and zoomie, svirve has common sense.
Apparently he doesn't. This is exactly what I said "I haven't been able to get on since a few days after the patch released" Now nowhere in there does it mention 3.0. I just thought that maybe he isn't an idiot (longshot on wowhead forums) and would remember the patch that released just a few weeks ago. But instead he just picks a random patch and thinks I am talking about it. Hence, the lack of common sense. But at this point I think he might have more than a common sense problem.
Now to try to explain this further.
NOW
with the most recent patch, 3.2.0 (I'm stating it so you don't randomly start thinking about 2.2 or something) agility, parry, and dodge all have the same DRs. It wasn't always like that. Dodge and agility both suffered from DRs, but they were different. That is why if you got your dodge rating up to 500-600, it was hit hard by DRs. But the DRs on agility (seperate from the DRs on dodge rating) wern't as bad so gemming agility was better. Dodge rating and agility are two totally different things, with two totally different diminishing returns. It is the reason for this:
Agility: The amount of agility required per percentage of dodge has been increased by 15%. This change required recalibrating the amount of dodge a player has with 0 agility by a slight amount as well, so all players will see their dodge percentage vary a small amount.
Like I said earlier, blizzard realized that there were poeple out there who were smart and knew that at one point gemming agility was better than dodge, so they made this change. Obviously, you are not one of the smart players.
Post by
65116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
havtor
dobbel he thinks he is the best pala ever and knows everything its no point arguing with him just ignore him
Post by
zoomie
The only thing they changed is that you need slightly more dodge rating per % of dodge and slightly less parry rating per % of parry.
So the patch notes say you need 15% more agility for dodge than before, and then you say the only thing that changed is you need more dodge rating for dodge and less parry rating for parry. You completely ignore what the patch notes say about agility, then say that I don't know how to read....
I'm done here. I don't know why I wasted so much time trying to describe something to a brick wall.
Post by
svirve
Apparently he doesn't. This is exactly what I said "I haven't been able to get on since a few days after the patch released" Now nowhere in there does it mention 3.0. I just thought that maybe he isn't an idiot (longshot on wowhead forums) and would remember the patch that released just a few weeks ago. But instead he just picks a random patch and thinks I am talking about it. Hence, the lack of common sense. But at this point I think he might have more than a common sense problem.
Now to try to explain this further.
NOW
with the most recent patch, 3.2.0 (I'm stating it so you don't randomly start thinking about 2.2 or something) agility, parry, and dodge all have the same DRs. It wasn't always like that. Dodge and agility both suffered from DRs, but they were different. That is why if you got your dodge rating up to 500-600, it was hit hard by DRs. But the DRs on agility (seperate from the DRs on dodge rating) wern't as bad so gemming agility was better. Dodge rating and agility are two totally different things, with two totally different diminishing returns. It is the reason for this:
Agility: The amount of agility required per percentage of dodge has been increased by 15%. This change required recalibrating the amount of dodge a player has with 0 agility by a slight amount as well, so all players will see their dodge percentage vary a small amount.
Like I said earlier, blizzard realized that there were poeple out there who were smart and knew that at one point gemming agility was better than dodge, so they made this change. Obviously, you are not one of the smart players.
And obviously you belong to said "smart" people, please go ahead and continue to be better than the rest of us and stack agility while we'll silently be slightly worse at everything than you and gem dodge.
Sigh, as i said you're ignorant, what are you doing among other people with an open mouth? You obviously dont understand english and if you actually do i'm amazed by the fact of how incredibly moronic you are.
I haven't been able to get on since a few days after the patch released, but before the patch there was a point where gemming for agility gave more dodge than dodge rating.
Is exactly what you said, and i pointed out that they have
always
shared the same DR, thus what you must have been referring to was pre WotLK cause then there was no DR. And if you havn't been able to be on since wotlk release i was amazed that you've been able to down algalon.
My suggestion to you, go back to trade before you make an even bigger ass of yourself.
Post by
247342
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
65116
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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