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Why DK's are OP and a balanced fix.
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Post by
Eleazer
Lightrain - You know how I feel about most of what you post, and part of what you state on here is fact, and part is just a little bit ridiculous. I have several points I would like to point out so that the majority of the people here who rant and rave about OP and stacking for FS crits can be quite.
1. DK's are seriously overpowered until lvl 75. At this point, they start to peter out and by 80 we are in the same pve wise as every other class. A majority of the grief dk's get is from the bg's from 50-69 where you see 5 dk's running together and you can't get away thanks to 37 million Deathgrips and CoI spamming. This is frustrating, and annoying. One remedy is to remove COI until lvl 77, giving those leveling a break from the over geared and insanely powerful dk's at that level.
2. Most of the nerfs you suggest would effectively end DK tanking. The nerf to Frost presence/AMS/IBF/UBA/FS and a majority of the recent nerfs to dk's have been pvp related and not pve. Did we need a nerf? Yes, but not this big a nerf. Any nerfs done to Frost presence would directly affect the already hampered ability of dk's to tank effectively. Our spike damage right now and the fact that our stamina is already lower than other tanks is ridiculous. I can go from 30k to 15k in one swing, and then go 30 seconds where I don't get hit at all. We are a cooldown based tank. PVP nerfs have crushed Frost tanking.
3. You cannot have Imp Frost Presence/UBA and Ghoul Pet/Gargoyle. Quit Lumping everything together.
4. CoL needs a DR. It's ridiculous how I can spam it and keep you slowed infinitely. However, by doing that I do seriously nerf my ability to do any damage outside of Blood Strike and Frost Srike. The biggest problem with nerfing CoL is you hurt Frost and Blood pvp abilities, while doing absolutely nothing to the abilities of unholy. The problem is that unholy tree has 4 ways to slow you down and none suffer from DR. For those who claim we need a tank/dps/pvp tree it really looks like we are headed that way. Unholy is the prefered pvp tree, 4 ways to stop you and increased magical resistance. Frost is the DPS tree thanks to dw scaling and Blood is the tank tree thanks to all the nerfs to Bone shield/UBA/Frost Presence and so on.
5. The better idea for Frost presence would be to bring the stamina back to where it is, but nerf the damage done by the DK while in Frost presence, while increasing their threat generation.
6. I can not have Ghoul and be able to do a 17k Death strike to heal myself back up again. Several of you have once again combined two trees that don't go together as deep as you say.
7. Our silence is on a two minute cooldown, our spell interrupt is on a 20 second one and requires runic power to work. We cannot spam spell interrupt and we cannot stun or slow outside of CoL and Imp Icy Touch as frost dk.
8. Finally, there is no way to build runic power to 130 while outside of melee range. The idea that we can build up a ton of runic power and then DG you over and spam FS is so far fetched it borders on a complete lack of understanding of class mechanics. We have to use our runes to gain runic power. 2h Frost was absolutely destroyed for pve purposes because FS spam was complained about so much it essentially killed an entire pve tree. 2h Frost tanking is also on it's way out with the continuing nerfs to UBA and IBF. Luckily they gave us back some of the loss of stamina in Frost Presence.
To sum it up, DK's are a pain to kill. I have no trouble blowing people up who don't play with skill, and sometimes I get lucky and faceroll a really skilled guy. The hardest class for us to kill is the Feral druid, because a smart one will keep us stunned and bleed us to death.
Post by
283244
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lightrain
We already stated most of that in the thread. This was also before most of the "nerfs". Although the major annoyances are still there.
DG is annoying, yes, but tolerable IF they made it a path ability like charge. Getting DG'd off platforms/bridges/columns down to lower levels is overpowered, but so is the shaman knock back that will fling you 40 yards away if you do the same.
CoI needs a CD. Even 10 seconds would be fine. Yes, I said 2 frost runes because it's that annoying and really needs to be turned into the DK SLOW, not the DK "snare you for eternity." You're not a kiting class, your a melee class. The mechanics need to act like it.
Having interupt, pet stun, silence, and DG all usable as interupts is overpowered since you crit so high and are so durable and more than likely have a desecration under said caster, so it's not like they can get away. Sure, rogues have 2 stuns, gouge, blind, kick and garrote, but they aren't that durable.
As I said many times previously, it's not that any one thing about DK's is overpowered to the point of game breaking(other than CoI's spamability which still saves more DK's in PvP than anything else). It's the fact that they have a little bit of everyting from everywhere that makes them overpowered.
Reducing frost presence damage and increasing the threat would not be hard and is an easy fix. It's not out of the question and would have easily solved the problems without nerfing frost tanks.
Reducing disease durations would not nerf PvE damage if they turned up the burst/DoT damage of them to even the damage out or tweaked the mechanics to make them work into the rotation better. The ret paladin DPS system has been around for how long? And how many times have they changed it completely in the last year?
Everyone assumes "reducing X is a nerf!" Well, Ret paladin crusader strike got nerfed so it's
WEAKER
than a melee white swing, but they reduced the cooldown to make up for it so it does approximately the same damage as before. The reduced cooldown also stabilizes their dps so it's less bursty, however they can hit you more often, so you don't get away with having 1000-2000 HP left as often.
What
amazes
me still, is if they reduce disease durations and buff the initial damage of frost strike or plague strike, or buff the DoT damage to make it more viable to use more often would actually
IMPROVE
the PvP damage of the DK because you take a 15 second duration disease that is dispellable and make it, say, a 9 second duration. If it get's dispelled, it's not as major of a damage reduction as dispelling the current version.
"Wait! OMG! The ret noob is making sense? But rets are all fail facerollers that don't know anything!"
Please, stop posting in this thread if you are going to bring the SAME ignorance back again. READ THE THREAD BEFORE POSTING!
Post by
Eleazer
I sincerely hope that your last comment was not directed at me. I read your thread, and found fault with several claims. I was not in anyway calling you a noob so please refrain from calling me ignorant because you don't agree with what I wrote.
Decreasing the duration of the disease and increase the initial damage of the disease while being nice would send us right back to the screams of we have overpowered burst damage while having great survivability. Granted 15 second diseases not cleansed is tough to deal with, but that is not the problem. Just to help you out in understanding the DK raider a bit more. It takes us approximately 13 seconds to get through a full rune rotation without actually using our runic power. Cutting that time down would make it almost impossible to complete a rotation before your diseases fell off. You do realize we have a 10 second cooldown before our runes are back up so we would essentially lose damage every rotation. (Please tell me you can see the problem there if not than my rather high opinion of you has been dampened a bit)
I clearly stated my belief on frost presence, you simply agreed with me there.
CoL is on a cooldown not a prolonged one, but a 10 second cooldown - is that enough probably not, but it should be affected by DR or at least not as powerful as it is. It's not a slow, it's a stop, though druids due have a stun that's on a 10 second cooldown as well (maim). My point being that while I understand your frustration. You are asking for something that basically nerfs their ability to cc or slow anyone down dramatically.
From my opinion of every page of your venting here, it seems your problem lies not with DK's in general, but with unholy dk's. Please understand that when you say DK's most people take it you are referring to every tree, however, the real problem lies in the amount of damage and CC's an unholy dk can unleash.
ONLY ONE TREE HAS A PET THAT CAN STUN AND HEAL ITSELF.
Your Frost/Blood DK has a silence/interrupt/deathgrip/CoI (slow). Druids have pounce/maim/cyclone/roots/infected wounds/bear charge/cat charge/bear stun, deal an amazing amount of damage, bleed targets, and can heal themselves. I could list other classes, but wanted to use a class you know really well. You see the comparison here. The other day I was wiping out a priest finally had him silence his Boomkin friend was 5 yards facing away from me, suddenly I am sent 40 yards away (that was annoying) I died before I could get back within range to Death grip.
Having said this I do agree with Death Grip. I have death gripped druids who were behind me. Who were behind walls or buildings. It's a bit broken, but has a simple fix needed.
Nerfing Frost presence anymore would wipe out any ability we have to tank effectively unless they altered it by my statement mentioned above. I am more than willing to have Unholy be a pvp presence, and have a complete loss of runic power if you change presences.
The biggest problem is unholy dk's can lock you down for just about 30-40 seconds do a crazy amount of damage and take no damage in return. Which is funny considering they are the worst pve dps class. The changes need to come in that tree not in Dk's in general. I am not sure how to be more clear to you.
Post by
283244
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
FalconPawnch
Not to bash any DKs that may be looking at this thread...But...Most Death Knights are terrible, even with these "OP" abilities they aren't useful if you cannot manage them correctly. Find a strategy, i'm not sure what class you play but every class can get around any class regardless of the handicaps your class may have.
In short: Get better or get owned, your call.
Post by
301983
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
283244
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lightrain
Nargy... I seriously can't understand what you just typed. I can't tell if you are saying warriors are OP or DK's are OP. Reguardless, you are wasting our time with your lack of useful info.
As to the others, the fact that you would rather keep DK's the way they are, in which priests, shaman and paladins can reduce your damage by 10-20%, instead of even theorize about changing the mechanics to refresh diseases more often, and the fact that you are stuck on this one issue that is/was more of an annoyance than anything major is part of the reason this thread should have died a long time ago.
I was restating what was in the thread already and proposed an idea that could possibly benefit you in PvE and PvP should it be reworked and could make the class more fun to play as well. Although, having twice as many desecrations floating around the map....
Post by
283244
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lightrain
I did read your post. You explained how with the current system reducing the duration doesn't work. I'm also pretty sure somewhere around 15 pages ago that I said that the disease duration length is more of an annoyance than anything to those of us without a vanish or CoS.
Also, out of all the issues I mentioned, none of them have actually been fixed. A tweak here and a tweak there.
But, you can't argue with that because it's true. DK's are an annoyance. They do a boat load of damage and have too many tools. Luckily it's not all burst damage like the new casters.
So again, I really don't care about DK's right now. Personally, I think 5 changes would make DK's balanced without destroying their viability and be more in line with every other melee class.
Remove desecration.
IT or FF should have a slow attatched to it.
CoI should have a cooldown.
DG should be path based.
Gargoyle changed ground based. Fearing it and it goes flying around the arena 20 yards up is dumb.
Slowing people you aren't even hitting is retarded for a melee unless it actually costs something. Why? You'r standing in the middle of it. Hunters, the only other class that has this, kites around it. They actually need it and blizzard based their slowing system around the trap. It also costs something. It's not in their dps rotation.
Other aoe slows?
FoK
while stupidly OP in it's own way(aoe debuf for all!) actually costs something.
Piercing how
costs something and only lasts 6 seconds. After that, what, earthbind toten? I guess that's it....
That's not even removing your retarded amount of interupt that is what makes it so you can kill basically any healer or lock down a caster. Ofc that's assuming you aren't retarded.
I only even argued my point about disease durations because you started back in on it. You're also so one dimensional that you just say, "it doesn't work, go F' yourself." Personally, I would rather be active with attacks than have 2-3 DoT's that tick for what, 300-600? Then, they are dispellable, and are key to keeping your damage up. But, that's just my opinion.
Now, that I've restated my arguement for the um'teenth time, and you will probably find something else to QQ about and argue since you missunderstand because, oh yeah, we've been over all this before in the thread, and you guys always have your coke bottle glasses on and ignore the main issues.
I really can't say anything else because all you geniuses will say is "QQ your a ret. L2Play." I have learned, and have 2 means of control with long cooldowns, which are dispellable or get grounded and one of which is removed upon damage. Hmmmm, bizzard gave us 2 token controls, keep nerfing it, and you tell us we're OP? Repentance doesn't even work on trees, ferals or ghostwolves. I'll tell you right now, if ret had an interupt, every ret would more than happily give up Divine shield so long as we keep BoP and
pally shield wall
, however the AW restriction on Divine protection is pretty dumb if you ask me.
TLDR version- RETQQZOMGROFLNOOB! As I'm sure you all are happy to post this in the next 2-5 posts.
Post by
283244
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
chase123
now tell me arena needs more skills than BGs go ahead QQ level 85 is coming let me see how
you gona get free epic you $%^&ing noobs am Laughing starting from now.
Im not sure if it was done on purpose, but this rhymed.
Post by
HoleofArt
now tell me arena needs more skills than BGs go ahead QQ level 85 is coming let me see how
you gona get free epic you $%^&ing noobs am Laughing starting from now.
Im not sure if it was done on purpose, but this rhymed.
LOL
It does.
.. can this thread die now?
Lightrain, you should probably ask for this to be deleted, or locked, or something.
Deathtards seem to keep flocking to it.
Annoying.
>:P
Post by
Lightrain
all 5 of those things are OK to fix.
i "ignore" them because i AGREE with them.
im being stubborn with your idea for changeing the DK rotation because your being vague as hell.
just saying that lowering disease times will help us is flat out stupid!
back up what your saying atleast with WHY it would help us... i listed reasons why it WOULDNT and you respond with some crap about how im just QQ venting because your a ret.
PS: nargy im not reading any of your post lol... they just make no sense at all >-<
Personally, I would rather be active with attacks than have 2-3 DoT's that tick for what, 300-600? Then, they are dispellable, and are key to keeping your damage up. But, that's just my opinion.
Meaning, if they made it work with shorter durations, dispelling your diseases wouldn't hurt your dps as much.
Post by
Eleazer
Light, you are mistaken shorter duration diseases would absolutely destroy PVE dps. It would completely shorten our already tight rotation. Could you imagine if Rip was at an 8 second rotation? It would completely hamper your ability as a pve dps.
You want to weaken us pvp wise, but by doing that you are completely destroying our pve rotation. Please read the dk threads and see just how tight our current rotation is.
bilny and just about every dk that posted so far has come off as an idiot, and not representative of DK's at large. The DK Forums are filled with a large amount of intelligent people that do not type like little elementary kids. However most of your knowledgeable and skilled DK's have ignored this post, because we understand that despite how many times we tell you that alot of your suggestions would effectively limit our ability to use any type of viable rotation, you scream about how much smarter you are than us.
I have given you the basic idea several times of suggestive changes to the DK which would not hamper our ability to field competitive PVP dps. I don't give a rat's potato pie about how annoying it is for you in pvp to have to deal with a 15 second disease duration. I have to deal with an extremely long mangle/rip, or in comparison to your paladin. I have to deal with a shield that you can do damage through while I can't hurt you at all. 10 seconds of no ability to stop anything you do is ridiculously long.
If you are going to post suggestive changes, stick to something that is actually viable, and won't nerf pve dps/tanking to the extent that we would no longer be viable. You have listed one change that works for that, the rest are simply ridiculous nerfs to an already nerfed tank spec, or a method that would essentially destroy our ability to dps with any sort of efficiency.
FF has a slow already you just have to spec into it - read the talent trees please
. You just never see a frost DK pvping that deep, because unholy is too powerful in pvp.
CoI with Diminishing Returns = Good
CoI with a weaker slow = Probably a good idea, though if it's nerfed too much we could be kited to oblivion
Death Grip with LOS and direct path changes = Good
Nerfing Frost Presence damage done while increasing threat = Good
Changing Gargoyles = good thing. Unholy tree needs to be completely reworked.
Nerfing Frost Presence Stamina or mitigation = Destroying ability to tank in Frost Tree
Increasing cooldown or rune cost of CoI = nerfing our ability to get to you unless you want to nerf Hamstring or poison slows than it wouldn't be fair
Shorter disease duration = would completely wreck the rotation and damage of every single dps tree especially tight rotation trees such as DW frost and Unholy pve. Weaken the ability to effectively tank for an extended period of time. (if I have to type out an exhaustive explanation as to how bad an idea this is than I would be saddened. Think of it as if they shortened the time limit on savage roar and rip at the same time)
For some reason you can't seem to understand that nerfing certain abilities for "pvp" purposes will have a completely destructive approach on the "pve" side of the game. I don't know how to explain it more clearly. If you want to change something that you feel is op in pvp you have to come up with a fix that also works in pve. Half of your nerfs would destroy pve tanking or dps for a dk.
Quit ripping on every DK when your real problem is a single tree. Every DK would readily agree that the only viable arena dk tree is Unholy. Are they OP - Absolutely, but you keep wanting to nerf frost which already has been nerfed to shreds, and has a tough time in pvp as well, and blood because you don't seem to understand that we can not combine the best of all three trees. I have explained myself extremely clearly twice to you, and feel that your only response is "YOU ARE AN IDIOT BECAUSE YOU PLAY A DK". If you fail to see the logic in my argument or want to discuss this like adults without dropping to video game jargon insults than my respect for you especially in regards to your help with my druid (thank you btw) will be unfounded and I will be sorely disappointed.
Post by
283244
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lightrain
And that's why I am copy pasting instead of typing.
IF
you throw away the current cycle mechanic and make it work with shorter durations.
IF
your diseases have a shorter duration.
IF
the DPS is the same in PvE.
IF
all this was maintained, you would do more damage in PvP because dispelling the diseases wouldn't be as big of a hit on your rotation. You would also have a more diverse rotation that you would have to keep track of, meaning it would be more interactive and not so faceroll.
That's all I've said about it.
We are argueing unholy here. Yes, I know frost has a slow attatched to it. You guys keep argueing about the disease duration arguement
WHICH I'VE SAID 20000000 TIMES IT'S A FREAKING MOOT ANNOYANCE!
Now that you guys have said the same thing 20 times, you can STOP because you made your point that the
CURRENT
mechanics don't support it.
Freaking STOP SAYING THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER. I'm not argueing that the current system doesn't support shorter durations. FREAKING STOP!
Either read that I've said this and not disputed your arguements about this destroying the unholy "PVE DPS with it's current mechanics" which doesn't exist because DK's don't DPS as unholy.
But, yet again, you have completely ignored the fact that this change doesn't matter. It's an annoyance that everyone can live with. So stop argueing it because it
DOESN'T MATTER
.
Maybe big bold letters will get it thru your head.
BTW, I'm not typing this again, so if you argue and type the same stupid page of "this is how DK's work" again, I'm not going to respond.
Post by
283244
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Eleazer
yea, im the ignorent retard.
love how you trashed me then Copy/pasted my argument into your pst. What does that tell me about you? Your as stupid/ignorent as me? Or that ur a hypocrit... or both?
Your not the only person who can state a viable argument eleazer.
I did not copy and paste your argument. I couldn't make it through your arguments, as the misspelling alone was so bad it made my eyes bleed. I have gone over this argument several posts before with Lightrain, but your inane insults and inability to state your point in a logical way threw him into a blind rage. The word is ignorant, hypocrite, you are or you're, and .... is meant to state that there is something else written there but you don't want to repeat. It is generally only used if I know what you are talking about but you didn't want to state it.
Finally, the correct way to phrase a question is to ask one, not make a statement and toss a question mark at the end. So your question should have been phrased "Are you as stupid and ignorant as me?" The answer to that is most likely, but I know how to phrase something so I don't come off that stupid. Grammar and text speech do not mix.
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