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Armor pen Vs. agi
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Post by
232114
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aadramelekh
I think that, in the end, the point should be formulated like this:
'When performing the DPS cycle against a target dummy with no other internal or external factors involved, except gear and class specific buffs / debuffs, a druid socketed fully for ArP will produce more damage than a druid with the same gear but fully socketed for agility.'
Which is true, because this is a situation that can be accurately described by mathematical models.
But personal experience takes into account a large number of boss encounters, under various circumstances. And that personal experience proved (to me) that agility is at least as effective as ArP when raid buffs are taken into account (mainly Blessing of Kings for the druid and FF + SA debuffs on the target boss).
That druid to which I compared myself plays EXACTLY like me. The same DPS cycle priority, the same abilities used under the same circumstances. And remember, the difference in total damage was minimal (0.2-0.3%) and in about 70% of the situations my overall damage was higher. When played optimally against a target dummy (using the same set of gear, one socketed for ArP, the other for Agi) then yes, ArP beats Agility. Anything out of the optimal conditions brings these two very close together.
And no mathematical model will make me gem for ArP as long as my personal experience proved Agility to be at least as effective as ArP.
Post by
232114
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lightrain
Just a thought.....
From the sound of Aadra's arguements, it seems there is a very simple answer to this.
Ready?
If you are a suicidal DPS that likes to sit in AoE and fall damage and have a designated healer, ArP is better.
If you are taking the heat off your healers by being in motion during motion fights, your Rip/Rake help keep your dps stable while you are repositioning.
ArP doesn't have the same benefit.
So, for fights like XT-200, Ignis, and possibly some others where you can sit on the boss the whole time, ArP is better. For actual raid boss fights, since the vast majority of fights don't allow you to do this, Agility is better.
Post by
Aadramelekh
If you are taking the heat off your healers by being in motion during motion fights, your Rip/Rake help keep your dps stable while you are repositioning.Bingo. Simple and well put.
Here's a Recount report from last night's General Vezax kill, when I had the chance of running head to head again with the ArP loaded feral in my guild.
THIS
is my damage done. Agility based gear, agility food & elixir.
THIS
is the other druid's damage done. ArP based gear, AP food & flask.
The first comparison is in overall damage done. Mine is 5.2% higher than his. As you can see, we used the same configurations of attacks, the boss had Sunder Armor and Faerie Fire permanently on it, and as you can see from the number of melee hits landed (~500 for both of us), the DPS up time was the same for both of us.
Now let's analyze the differences. First of all, I am using 2xT7+2xT8. He uses 4xT8. Maybe this had an influence (which would also prove me correct when I was saying that 2xT7 + 2xT8 is better than 4xT8 for feral DPS, despite what people like
foleynuts
and others claimed). Both me and the other druid have Grim Toll and +90 agi as trinkets, and Journey's End as weapon. I am using Rip idol, he uses Shred idol.
1.
Rip
- mine did 787K damage, during 195 ticks. His did 623K damage in 176 ticks. This is pretty much clear: Rip idol + more crit greatly improved my Rip damage. My Rip holds 30.3% of total damage, his holds 25.3% of total damage. My Rip was better than his by 26.3% - what can we say about this?
Rip pwns
. Period. Notice a very nice 59% crit rate for Rip. Actually more than my raid buffed 56.5% crit chance.
2.
Shred
- mine did 648K damage, for 92 hits. His did 604K damage, for 78 hits. His shreds hit harder, but I had probably more OOC procs and more crits. My Shred holds 25% of total damage, his holds 24.5% of total damage.
3.
Melee
- mine did 672K damage for 501 hits, his did 698K in 503 hits. This is where ArP proves to be better than Agi, by a margin of exactly 3.8% (not such a big difference versus Agility gear, eh?). My Melee holds 25.9% of total damage, his holds 28.3% of total damage.
4.
Rake
- mine did nearly a perfect 294K over 125 ticks, his did 280K in 119 ticks. Pretty close, Rake can't crit, basically both Rakes did
exactly the same
damage per tick on average. 11.3% of total damage for me, 11.4% of total damage for him.
5.
Ferocious Bite
- mine did close to 99K in 9 hits, his did close to 196K in 13 hits. This is where ArP really proves to be strong. 11K average damage for me, 15K average damage for him. Also his spec includes 5/5 Feral Aggression, for +15% FB damage. I don't find such a great use for that talent. At least not until I have 4xT8 and I can afford using FB more often. However all his ArP and +15% FB damage did not offset the strength of my Rip enhanced by Agility.
Other than that, I used Mangle as a quick filler to keep Rip constantly running (sometimes after using FB I was at risk of letting Rip fall off, I didn't want that to happen so I decided to use a 34 energy Mangle instead of a 42 energy Shred). As a final word, I mention we had about 7 other attempts before the actual kill. On 5 of them I was also 2-3% higher than him in damage done (wipes at around 40-45%). On 2 attempts he did more overall damage than me (when wipes happened very early into the fight, around 75-80% boss HP, so his burst damage due to ArP was higher).
I hope I proved my point and my reason for sticking to agility instead of switching for ArP in my gem slots. Practical evidence over mathematical models. I am not saying I disregard mathematical models. They are very useful. But seeing practical results weighs a bit heavier in my 'balance of reasons' when making decisions. The point is - on fights that are short enough (probably less than 3 minutes), I think ArP will prove to be better than Agility. But on those that last more than 4 minutes, Agility already begins to catch up and overtake ArP due to a much higher crit rate.
It is all a question of choice
. And my choice is Agility, exactly because of the reason stated by
Lightrain
. It's as simple as that.
Post by
310761
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Afoxi
Woah... Woah... Woah.... C'mon now.
Lets not get carried away.
40%?
No.
Try 25%.
Lets asume for a second that not all ferals are as pussy foot as you.
We dont hop, skip, and jump at the first sign of danger.
(at least I dont)
Just one example...(since I dont want to toot my own horn)
Overload
GTFO! .. right?
pfttt.... please...
Barkskin
+
Predatory Instincts
= Woop-dee-fricken -doo
I'll stay put and shred my ass off..... tyvm.
Arp >>> agi
75% of damage done more than qualifies for straight up physical buff to melee damage.
If you wanna be a waaaaaaaaammmm cakes and run away every 4 seconds... then.... well.. i donno.. grats on being cautious!
My job is to dps. I do it well.
Leaning your class is hard!
Isn't this the irresponsible thing to do?
Post by
pelf
Isn't this the irresponsible thing to do?
Foley likes to fly by the seat of his pants.
Post by
Anile
1.
Rip
- mine did 787K damage, during 195 ticks. His did 623K damage in 176 ticks. This is pretty much clear: Rip idol + more crit greatly improved my Rip damage. My Rip holds 30.3% of total damage, his holds 25.3% of total damage. My Rip was better than his by 26.3% - what can we say about this?
Rip pwns
. Period. Notice a very nice 59% crit rate for Rip. Actually more than my raid buffed 56.5% crit chance.
Here is the problem. He is not keeping up rip. I am prob not geared as well as either of you as I am a healer and feral ot/off dps spec. I currently have around 250 arm pen and about 51.5% crit (before the 4.8% boss modifier) Even with the lower crit rating, I can still keep rip all the time, rake most of the time and at least one bite per minute. Currently with my gear I can keep up 5k on non gimmick bosses. I was recently in a pug with another feral that has 100% uptime of rake/rip/mangle(according to parses), with better gear tham me (6% more crit and 10k ap instead of 8k raid buffed) and was completely dps specced and I still beat him on every fight in Nax except thadius. Counting the minibosses I was at 7800 and he was at 8100. I also was behind the boss for about 1/5 of the fight. Weeing this, there is no way in hell I am going back to all agility ever again. Unless of course thet severely nerf arm pen or go to the 2 ap per agility as they have been stating is a possability.
Post by
pelf
At least this is what I read on every ArP related topic so far. Can you please provide proof that ArP stacks with ArP debuffs and their total value is applied to the boss' armor?
The way I stated it wasn't correct, but the gist of what I was trying to recount was accurate. Here (
Source
):
And iirc not having the major armor debuff increases armor penetration's relative value...
If the mobs debuffed armor is < 7616 (trash mobs, lower level mobs, heroic throw applied to boss), the damage increase gained by a given amount of ArP is dimished the lower the debuffed armor is. So your statement is true in this case.
But in the (standard) case of the boss debuffed armor being > 7616 the dmg increase of ArP remains constant for a given ArP value.
Some milestone numbers to keep in mind for this standard case (seeing as FF + sunder/expose do not reduce the boss armor below 7616) are:
30% ArP -> 11% Dmg Increase
50% Arp -> 20% Dmg Increase
60% Arp -> 25% Dmg Increase
75% Arp -> 33% Dmg Increase
100% Arp -> 50% Dmg Increase
In burn phases having SS + FF + Heroic throw active as boss debuffs (reducing boss armor from 10643 to 6471) the Dmg increase of 100% ArP is reduced to 42,5%.
Obviously having more armor debuffs on the boss results always in higher absolute dmg done. So Shattering Throw et al are never detrimental to your damage, no matter how high your individual ArP might be.
Post by
Lightrain
Here is the problem. He is not keeping up rip. I am prob not geared as well as either of you as I am a healer and feral ot/off dps spec. I currently have around 250 arm pen and about 51.5% crit (before the 4.8% boss modifier) Even with the lower crit rating, I can still keep rip all the time, rake most of the time and at least one bite per minute. Currently with my gear I can keep up 5k on non gimmick bosses. I was recently in a pug with another feral that has 100% uptime of rake/rip/mangle(according to parses), with better gear tham me (6% more crit and 10k ap instead of 8k raid buffed) and was completely dps specced and I still beat him on every fight in Nax except thadius. Counting the minibosses I was at 7800 and he was at 8100. I also was behind the boss for about 1/5 of the fight. Weeing this, there is no way in hell I am going back to all agility ever again. Unless of course thet severely nerf arm pen or go to the 2 ap per agility as they have been stating is a possability.
You sound like you have very sound gear. Do you have an armory of you and said DPSer you are comparing against?
I don't think I even have 51.5% crit fully kitty spec'd and I gem agil(I think I have strength in some of my slots still tho.... Haven't got to fixing the set yet as I'm doing bear stuffs.)
Post by
pelf
I don't think I even have 51.5% crit fully kitty spec'd and I gem agil(I think I have strength in some of my slots still tho.... Haven't got to fixing the set yet as I'm doing bear stuffs.)
Are you talking about 51.5% fully raid buffed?
Post by
144872
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aadramelekh
when there is 20 yard green stain on the groundMaybe he meant the death runes during the Iron Council if Runemaster Molgeim isn't killed first. Those are green and 20 yards wide as well.
Post by
HZAres
THIS
is my damage done. Agility based gear, agility food & elixir.
lol wow 3 feral druids, must be pretty tough picking over there
Mjolnir Runestone
and
Grim Tol
stack btw so you can just pick up both trinkets and say goodbye to static ArP
Post by
pelf
THIS
is my damage done. Agility based gear, agility food & elixir.
lol wow 3 feral druids, must be pretty tough picking over there
Mjolnir Runestone
and
Grim Tol
stack btw so you can just pick up both trinkets and say goodbye to static ArP
I don't think anyone loves RNG that much. Not to mention, double proc will exceed the cap with the trinkets alone, not to mention the ArP you'll have on your gear that you can't get rid of. Best combo is Mjolnir + DMC:G(Agi) or Mjolnir + Blood of the Old God.
Post by
HZAres
I don't think anyone loves RNG that much. Not to mention, double proc will exceed the cap with the trinkets alone, not to mention the ArP you'll have on your gear that you can't get rid of. Best combo is Mjolnir + DMC:G(Agi) or Mjolnir + Blood of the Old God.
just ran some rawr with the 2 trinkets and gear set up about only 50ish arp and gemed for agi is scoring 100 dps more than the best in slot 550ish ArP setup with the runestone
mind you that the ArP school dps relies on RNG, buffs/debuffs and perfect dps time more than anyone out there.
Post by
HZAres
Agi Setup
- 7983 optimal dps
ArP Setup
- 7879 optimal dps
Post by
pelf
There are discrepancies between the results and methodologies of FBN and Rawr. The two authors are probably going to get together and figure out where those are. Until then, I wouldn't take either of them as absolute rote.
I suppose my point was that without static stats, you're relying on a statistical average of a proc. If you look at it that way, then those two trinkets aren't actually worth the value of their proc as there are times where your ArP is zero, times when you have one up and times when you have both. Look at it another way: if you had a trinket that procced 1200 Agility, would you wear that and stack Strength to the exclusion of Agility?
Post by
144872
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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