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A Plea for Understanding of the Horde
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Post by
Skreeran
Alright, I wrote up this defense for the Horde. Tell me what you think. If you find any holes, I'll see if I can patch them up. ;)
Orcs
– First, let me remind all reading that it has been 26 years since the First War, and the majority of the Orcs were just children when the Dark Portal opened. As children they were enslaved by the humans for the crimes of their parents. It's only natural for them to be resentful. They should only be judged for the actions the New Horde has committed.
The Orcs are a people that are heavily based on the Vikings, with a little Eastern stuff thrown in there as far as honor and spirits and things. Their culture has always been based on battle and glory. They go to their ancestors in their afterlife, and their measure of worth is how great a warrior they were. They honor a fallen opponent who died with honor, and hate enemies who hide or run or use other “cowardly” tactics. The majority of them do not believe that killing or dying is wrong, and though this does not excuse them from their actions, it should be taken into account. It's very difficult for Thrall and those who share his ideals to mold a human mindset within them.
Trolls
– The current Trolls that belong to the Horde are the Darkspear tribe, as most of you know. They have been living on their islands for the last thousand or so years, and so they share no part of the actions of the Old Horde. They were in serious danger, and the Orcs sailing to Kalimdor were their saviors. Thrall rescued them and they felt a debt, so they joined the Horde. When the Horde was attacked by their enemies, the Trolls fought back, and so they developed a personal conflict with the Alliance. The Alliance wanted to destroy their allies and by proxy, them, so they grew to hate the Alliance.
The Trolls have rarely ever been at peace throughout history, so the idea is rather foreign to them. But they'll follow Thrall to hell and back, so they're doing their best.
Tauren –
Naturally peaceful, the Tauren's story is similar to the Trolls. Thrall saved them, they joined him, the Alliance attacked the Horde. Rarely will you see the Tauren picking a fight, but when their war-brother is in danger, they'll help him in an instant.
The Forsaken
– Theirs is a long and divided history. The Forsaken are as varied as humans, and they carry many agendas. There are some who wish to develop a new “life” in undeath, simply finding a purpose for their existance. In general, the world sees them as horrible misbegotten mistakes, and it truly must be a lonely existance for those who are not wholy consumed by hate. Then there are those that think of their state as temporary and just want to find a cure. Some of these individuals formed the early Royal Apothecary Society. Then of course, you have the ones with are filled with hate and want to destroy the living. They formed a large part of the Forsaken, but they were for the most part purged from the orders of the Forsaken in the Battle of Undercity. The remainder of the Forsaken have really been jolted by the betrayal of their brethren, because now all the progress they made with trust has been ripped out from underneath them. They might as well be back to being the Scourge in the eyes of many of their allies.
In addition, I'd like to point out the attacks on behalf of the humans. Even before the agression on behalf of the Forsaken at Tarren Mill, the living humans have always for the most part been trying to annihilate them. Just look at Varian when he went to Lordaeron. He claimed it in the name of the Alliance. Never mind the fact that every one of the Fosaken used to live in Lordaeron. It's the home of the citizens of Lordaeron, it always has been. The Alliance has no more right to Lordaeron simply because it used to be a part of the Alliance than England has to the United State simply because it used to be a British colony.
The Blood Elves
– They have really been dealt a sour hand of cards by the Alliance. Now sure, this was at the hands of a select few humans, but you Varian supporters always seem to bring up his slavery at the hands of a single orc as proof of the Horde's hostility, so I bring up Garithos as a counter-point. Not only were they treated unfairly toward the end of their membership as Alliance, but then a human prince comes and destroys their lands. People always point to Thrall's poor leadership as the source of the problems with the Forsaken and the Warsong orcs, but where was the Alliance when Arthas was being corrupted and being set up to destroy the Elves way of life. The shattered remains of the Elven Kingdom were left confused and helpless, and ended up following a charismatic madman. Now, in the wake of Kael'thas' betrayal, they're left wounded and confused.
Conflict with the Night Elves
– The Night Elves were the instigators. The Orcs had no idea that there was anyone living in that forest until the elves attacked them. The Warsong orcs made a very bad decision in
the matter (drinking demon blood), but the conflict was started by the Night Elves. What were the orcs supposed to do? Not fight back?
Conflict with the Dwarves
– The biggest conflict between the Horde and the Dwarves is in Alterac Valley, where the Dwarves walked in and attacked by the Frostwolf orcs. I point this conflict to the orcs’ ancient clan based system. The Orcs believed the Dwarves to be encroaching upon their land, and so they attacked. Back when clans fought wars for land, you didn’t negotiate when someone invaded your land, you tried to push them out. Yes, this is about the same conflict as what happened with the Night Elves, but you must remember, the Night Elves culture is supposed to be about peace and wisdom, not about fighting wars. The Orcs are still getting used to diplomacy after coming out of thousands of years of constant fighting. What’s the Night Elves’ excuse? And for those of you who say that the Orcs have no right to any land, because they are extraterrestrials, may I remind you that Dwarves, Gnomes and Humans are all decended from Titan constructs who came from another planet? No one was living in Alterac Valley when they came in, and they’ve been living there for 20 years. It’s their land. Heck, using the former argument, you could say that Quel’Thalas belongs to the Amani Trolls, rather than the High/Blood Elves because the Trolls lived there first.
Edit: I forgot to mention that Thrall put together a mission to save Princess Moira Bronzebeard to further efforts for peace with the dwarves. That is seriously selfless in my opinion.
Conflict with the Humans
– I put this one to years of hostility. The Humans, for the most part, don’t care whether it’s the Old Horde or the New Horde. Their both Orcs, Trolls, and assorted enemies. Yes, the Old Horde really screwed the humans over, and (at least some of) the Orcs who participated in that War feel deep-seated remorse, just ask Saurfang. The majority of the Orcs that are still around are from the second generation who were enslaved for their parents crimes. It’s just continued conflict.
Conflict with the Draenei
– See above, but that’s compounded by the fact that I doubt that many of the immortal Draenei understand that it was a different generation of Orcs that persecuted them and that perhaps with perseverance, peace could be achieved. Also, I honestly believe that Velen has forgiven the Orcs. He is perhaps the wisest “mortal” (as opposed to dragons/gods/titans) character in the lore.
In the end, it seem to me that the majority of the Horde either just needs a second chance, or is just trying to defend their brethren. There are a few bad apples (Garrosh, the majority or the former RAS, a handful of Blood Elves), but don't let that spoil the whole basket in your eyes.
Post by
229054
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Post by
Skreeran
Thanks for replying, let me address the points you brought up:
Point 1: Orcs and Lumber
You have to remember that these are Orcs we're talking about. Giving up on their conflict and going somewhere else is a surrender in their eyes. They aren't about to seem cowardly in the eyes of their enemies. They'd rather die a thousand times over.
Point 2: Evil Forsaken
Yes, there are still many "truly" evil Forsaken, but a good portion of them were taken out in the battle of Undercity. There are also many other Forsaken that are simply trying to cling to their place in the world. Look how many Forsaken refugees showed up in Orgrimmar. Maybe I missed something, but they seemed fairly scared for their future to me.
Point 3: The Draenei's Agenda
Yes, that is an excellent point. We haven't really seen a broad enoguh cross-section of the Draenei to see the spectrum of their races beliefs.
Point 4: The Night Elves
I was specifically referring to the Druids, who seem to wish to solve thing without conflict if it can be avoided. Otherwise I agree with you there.
Edit:
Point 5: The Blood Elves
Lordaeron had already fallen, but who let it happen? I can totally see the Elves blaming Alliance sluggishness allowing Arthas to be corrupted.
And as far as Kael'thas, he was not mad yet, but he certainly was rather outlandish in his ideals. Picking up Fel magic is certainly rather mad, I would say. Now that he's betrayed them, they're back to square one, uncertain in their future and idealogy.
Post by
229054
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Post by
Skreeran
Point 2: Evil Forsaken
Yes, there are still many "truly" evil Forsaken, but a good portion of them were taken out in the battle of Undercity. There are also many other Forsaken that are simply trying to cling to their place in the world. Look how many Forsaken refugees showed up in Orgrimmar. Maybe I missed something, but they seemed fairly scared for their future to me.
No no you don't get it, Sylvanas herself have her own "Dark Schemes".
Maybe I missed it, but where did it say Sylvanas is planning to betray the Horde? I would say their bond has only strengthened with Thrall helping her take back Undercity.
Point 5: The Blood Elves
Lordaeron had already fallen, but who let it happen? I can totally see the Elves blaming Alliance sluggishness allowing Arthas to be corrupted.
And as far as Kael'thas, he was not mad yet, but he certainly was rather outlandish in his ideals. Picking up Fel magic is certainly rather mad, I would say. Now that he's betrayed them, they're back to square one, uncertain in their future and idealogy.
Kael was as many, he was shocked for Quel'thas a kingdom which stood for almost 10 thousand years had fallen.Also magic addiction on its early times was a mysterious disease that some believed to be lethal.He simply chose for survival at first(fleeing to the Outlands) and then, after he had more contact with the "Fel World" he would have a change in ideals.
Parhaps, but this point is tangental at best. In the Blood Elves' eyes, the Alliance's inaction is responsible for Arthas' corruption, and thus his invasion of Quel'thalas.
Following Kael'thas saved them yes, but now that he's betrayed them, they're unsure of what direction to go in. The Horde showed them compassion and allowed their former enemies to join their ranks.
Post by
Skreeran
Oh, and I forgot to mention this quest:
http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=4002
See the edit I made in the first post under "Conflict with the Dwarves" section.
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229054
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166613
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Post by
ruleofthumb
Sylvannas created the RAS for the purpose of taking revenge upon the Arthas and the Lich King. Varimathras only allied himself with her to save his own skin. He probably had alterior motives all along, he says it himself; "I'm always on the winning side." Who seemed like they were winning at the time? The Lich King. And Varimathras used some of the RAS's apothicaries (to include the respected Putress) to do a terrible act.
Sylvanas created the RAS for the benefit of her people, she couldn't foresee the fact that Putress and Varimathras would turn on her and the rest of the Horde. She may have had her own agenda at the beginning of the third war, but after everything Thrall has done to accept her and her people for what they are now, as opposed to what they were, I doubt she still believes on taking revenge upon all living creatures.
Post by
150287
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Post by
Skreeran
Umm, and what do you think Matthias Shaw and SI:7 does for Stormwind? They monitor the activities of suspicious/powerful characters, to make sure they're not plotting to overthrow the monarch or sabotage Alliance/Stormwind policies. If such an organization does not exst among the Forsaken...it's their own fault.
Did Mathias Shaw see that Lady Katrana Prestor was a black dragon?No?Like she used the same family name as her father, Deathwing did.
The Forsaken may regard Sylvanas as incapable of error. I don't think the other Horde leaders would. At the very least, all of the other Horde leaders would want VERY close surveillance of EVERY major group within the Forsaken. Sylvanas' error in judgement cost the Horde dearly, and to King Wrynn, the lack of response means the Horde doesn't care about their own people, let alone the Alliance.
I believe that killing every traitorous member of the Royal Apothecary Society is enough as a response.
QFT. The Humans are certainly quick to pointing fingers about an evil being leading a faction.
And as for Thrall's relation in this, I doubt he's even been to Undercity very many times. He leads the Orcs and Trolls and helps lead the Tauren, but the Forsaken and Blood Elves are more like close allies than and actual member of his group. He probably didn't know that a Dreadlord was leading the Forsaken, and it's not his job to.
Post by
Morec0
Maybe I missed it, but where did it say Sylvanas is planning to betray the Horde? I would say their bond has only strengthened with Thrall helping her take back Undercity.
Undead introduction cinematic and a few other things.
Most of thats old lore, from back in reg WoW. And Blizz is to lazy to go bak and change a little thing like that
And I'd like to thank Skreeran for pointing out the Horde's good qualites. If any factions Evil in WoW its the Alliance!
Plz don't debate that, I'm busy atm.
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