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An article on Varian Wrynn being right
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Post by
Patty
Varian is racist and needs anger management cousling like dwarfs need AA meetings.
Seriously, they do.
...
Somewhere in Ironforge:
Dwarf: AA is for quiters!
Me has a T-Shirt saying Rehab is for quitters...
But he is a bigot in my eyes, and that post is hugely biased, so I wouldn't say it is very reliable.
But...I suppose Blizzard wanted people to debate over his character.
Post by
Eledhwen
I read the article and it made some very valid points but basically all one has to do is look at how Varian is portrayed in appearance to see how Blizzard wants to see him perceived. This dude is crazed looking and rather scary to look at. He's all dark and hulking with a horrid look on his face. He's scarier to look at than the Orcs!
He's NOT portrayed as a wise, noble leader. He looks like a fanatic gone mad. The Alliance has a time bomb as a leader and I think that's what Blizzard is aiming for, like it or not. Oh sure, he has reason to hate the Horde and feel as he does but a good leader puts aside his personal feelings and does what is best for his people, and doesn't react and make decisions based on personal emotion and pure vitriol and hatred.
Any leader would know that fighting a war on two (or more fronts) will lead to destruction in the end. The Alliance needs to focus on fighting the Lich King and Malygos...Not escalating a conflict with the Horde. Whether the Alliance allies with the Horde is one thing but to go to all out war with the Horde? That path is not logical.
As for Thrall, I love the guy but I have to wonder why he put young Hellscream in charge of ANYTHING. All Hellscream has done is make trouble for him, the last thing Thrall should do is tolerate him, never mind reward him. I sure hope Saurfang sets things straight. I'd love to see Hellscream sent to some far away outpost in the middle of nowhere. How about Valormok in Azshara?. He shouldn't be commanding anything that requires thought and diplomacy.
I play both Alliance and Horde so I'm not biased at all in either direction. Both sides have their problems and good points.
Post by
Supremacy
Varian is racist and needs anger management cousling like dwarfs need AA meetings.
Seriously, they do.
...
Somewhere in Ironforge:
Dwarf: AA is for quiters!
Me has a T-Shirt saying Rehab is for quitters...
But he is a bigot in my eyes, and that post is hugely biased, so I wouldn't say it is very reliable.
But...I suppose Blizzard wanted people to debate over his character.
Which post? My post, or the initial article?
Anyway, I've been giving some thought to this whole bigot scenario. The problem with calling Varian a bigot is that in general, bigotry is based on prejudice. Varian is not prejudicing the orcs. Every single encounter he's had with them over the course of his entire life has either involved orcs either outright trying to kill him and his loved ones, or betraying his people. Sometimes both.
No, I'm not saying all orcs are bad, or evil, or can't be trusted. But I wouldn't call him a bigot.
That guy in the Warcraft games, though, the one who hated elves and orcs and everyone who wasn't human?
Now
that
man was a bigot.
Post by
Patty
I was referring to the poster of the topic "Varian wrynn is right" or whatever it was called.
Post by
283679
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Supremacy
I read the article and it made some very valid points but basically all one has to do is look at how Varian is portrayed in appearance to see how Blizzard wants to see him perceived. This dude is crazed looking and rather scary to look at. He's all dark and hulking with a horrid look on his face. He's scarier to look at than the Orcs!
Now, now. All judging books by their cover. But, yes, I agree, he is not drawn as someone you want to really cross. A friend of mine said "That's the type of king where you don't want to even accidentally say something that might kind of sound like 'coup'."
He's NOT portrayed as a wise, noble leader. He looks like a fanatic gone mad. The Alliance has a time bomb as a leader and I think that's what Blizzard is aiming for, like it or not.
Oh sure, he has reason to hate the Horde and feel as he does but a good leader puts aside his personal feelings and does what is best for his people, and doesn't react and make decisions based on personal emotion and pure vitriol and hatred.
Any leader would know that fighting a war on two (or more fronts) will lead to destruction in the end. The Alliance needs to focus on fighting the Lich King and Malygos...Not escalating a conflict with the Horde. Whether the Alliance allies with the Horde is one thing but to go to all out war with the Horde? That path is not logical.
I bolded that part, because it has two points that I want to cover.
1) Varian is allowing his emotions to overpower his judgment.
2) Varian should put aside his differences with the Horde to unite against a common, far more dangerous foe.
As far as the first, I would argue that, as the king of Stormwind, he is not allowed to ignore his past experiences with the orcs. He has, I think, more experience and knowledge with the orcs than any king in recent memory. I would actually be surprised to find out that he
doesn't
speak Orcish fluently. The point being, he needs to bring that to the table. If every single orc he has ever encountered over the course of his life has been hellbent on destroying the human race, with no exceptions, then he
needs
to take that into account. Especially if it involves placing the lives of the men and women and Stormwind on the line.
I doubt the Forsaken, for that matter, would ever be able to fully put aside their differences with the Scarlet Crusade and unite for one common goal.
As for the second point, uniting with an enemy to fight a common foe...there's that Wrathgate thing. He just tried that. He bit his tongue, put aside his differences, and worked with the Horde to stand against someone who was going to destroy the world.
And then, there was betrayal from within the ranks of the Horde that was responsible for more deaths to the Alliance than the Scourge. Including Bolvar, the man who had raised his son in his absence.
Point being, you can't fight alongside people who have a history of betraying you at the worst possible moments.
As for Thrall, I love the guy but I have to wonder why he put young Hellscream in charge of ANYTHING. All Hellscream has done is make trouble for him, the last thing Thrall should do is tolerate him, never mind reward him. I sure hope Saurfang sets things straight. I'd love to see Hellscream sent to some far away outpost in the middle of nowhere. How about Valormok in Azshara?. He shouldn't be commanding anything that requires thought and diplomacy.
I still maintain that it should not be Saurfang who puts Garrosh in his place. I think it needs to be Thrall. The leader of the Horde needs to flex some muscle.
And soon.
Post by
Skreeran
My problem with the article is that, yes, Varian is understandably miffed, but he's letting his rage guide his leadership of his kingdom. Another war in the middle of a war just isn't what's best for the Alliance. The Alliance should have a leader who is open to compromise and deosn't let their emotions control their actions.
In an emotional sense, Varian is right. He should be angry for what happened to him.
In a political sense, he is very, very wrong. And its his subjects who are going to pay the price.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Supremacy
My problem with the article is that, yes, Varian is understandably miffed, but he's letting his rage guide his leadership of his kingdom. Another war in the middle of a war just isn't what's best for the Alliance. The Alliance should have a leader who is open to compromise and deosn't let their emotions control their actions.
In an emotional sense, Varian is right. He should be angry for what happened to him.
In a political sense, he is very, very wrong. And its his subjects who are going to pay the price.
I suppose my problem with this belief is that I don't think it takes everything into account. It's being said frequently, on this and other forums, that Varian is letting his emotions guide him, and that he should put aside his differences for the good of Azeroth. My problem is there are two things not being taken into account.
1) He did. He
just
did. He just attempted to work diplomatically with the Horde, to unite against a common enemy. This was at the Wrathgate. Is he supposed to try that again? Is that in the best interests of his people?
2) This belief also makes it sound like the Horde are blameless in this whole scenario. Varian is not some reactionary hothead who is acting based solely on prejudices. Orcs are not a noble, pacifistic race who can attribute all ill will towards them as a misunderstanding. The author of the article did a good job at pointing out that Varian, and the Alliance, have a serious, legitimate beef with orcs.
From a political standpoint, here are his options, as I see it:
1) Fight <evil monster> with his own forces, and prepare for war with the Horde down the line.
2) Team up with the Horde to fight <evil monster>, against your better judgment, and despite the betrayal at the Wrathgate.
Bloody history between the Horde and the Alliance, too. Not really the situation where you just say let bygones be bygones.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
My problem with the article is that, yes, Varian is understandably miffed, but he's letting his rage guide his leadership of his kingdom. Another war in the middle of a war just isn't what's best for the Alliance. The Alliance should have a leader who is open to compromise and deosn't let their emotions control their actions.
In an emotional sense, Varian is right. He should be angry for what happened to him.
In a political sense, he is very, very wrong. And its his subjects who are going to pay the price.
1) Fight <evil monster> with his own forces, and prepare for war with the Horde down the line.
2) Team up with the Horde to fight <evil monster>, against your better judgment, and despite the betrayal at the Wrathgate.
You forgot option 3: Declare open war on the Horde and issue a death threat to their Warchief, which is what he did.
He could certainly have just let the Horde do what they do and keep focused on the current threat. Instead he declares a war on the Horde in the middle of the war on the Lich King. Not very smart. Look at Bolvar. He was a good guy. He never opened a war on the Horde, in fact, when C'thun got up and started kicking our asses, the Alliance and Horde managed to work together to beat him (led by my favorite character in the whole lore of course, good ol' High Overlord Saurfang). Similar situation here, and Varian declares war. :\
And no, the Horde did NOT betray the Alliance. The traitorous Royal Apothecary Society fired on both. They even betrayed Sylvanas.
Post by
Supremacy
You forgot option 3: Declare open war on the Horde and issue a death threat to their Warchief, which is what he did.
He could certainly have just let the Horde do what they do and keep focused on the current threat. Instead he declares a war on the Horde in the middle of the war on the Lich King. Not very smart. Look at Bolvar. He was a good guy. He never opened a war on the Horde, in fact, when C'thun got up and started kicking our asses, the Alliance and Horde managed to work together to beat him (led by my favorite character in the whole lore of course, good ol' High Overlord Saurfang). Similar situation here, and Varian declares war. :\
And no, the Horde did NOT betray the Alliance. The traitorous Royal Apothecary Society fired on both. They even betrayed Sylvanas.
Royal Apothecary Society from which camp, again?
It's just...say that the attack had come from the corrupt nobles of Stormwind. Not the Syndicate, because everyone knows they're bad. But one of those random people who seem to have paid off the right person to be allowed to just chill in Stormwind Castle.
Would the Horde look at that as a splinter faction of the Alliance, or an attack by the Alliance?
Again, though, I think people are underestimating just how much of a threat feels the Horde has become. They are, to him, as dangerous to the safety of the Alliance as the Scourge.
And I don't think the situation is the same here, as it was with C'Thun. Because they, if memory serves, were allowed to focus their efforts on the common enemy. There was not a point where they (as far as the main characters go) had to worry about being stabbed in the back.
Also, the original author of the article made a strong case for the Royal Apothecary Society not being the rogue body people say it is. I haven't read the novel he's referencing, but if he's to be believed, Sylvanas was not completely ignorant of what was going on.
Post by
Skreeran
Royal Apothecary Society from which camp, again?
It's just...say that the attack had come from the corrupt nobles of Stormwind. Not the Syndicate, because everyone knows they're bad. But one of those random people who seem to have paid off the right person to be allowed to just chill in Stormwind Castle.
Would the Horde look at that as a splinter faction of the Alliance, or an attack by the Alliance?
Again, though, I think people are underestimating just how much of a threat feels the Horde has become. They are, to him, as dangerous to the safety of the Alliance as the Scourge.
And I don't think the situation is the same here, as it was with C'Thun. Because they, if memory serves, were allowed to focus their efforts on the common enemy. There was not a point where they (as far as the main characters go) had to worry about being stabbed in the back.
Also, the original author of the article made a strong case for the Royal Apothecary Society not being the rogue body people say it is. I haven't read the novel he's referencing, but if he's to be believed, Sylvanas was not completely ignorant of what was going on.
You still think that starting a second war is what's best for the Alliance? Varian said that "the Horde" caused more casualties than the Scourge at the Wrathgate. He sure must be confident in the Alliance if he's going to open a war with them now. The ones who died at the wrathgate weren't even fighting a war against eachother. They were fighting side by side. How many more will die if they're fighting eachother instead? Both sides are likely going to get mowed down by the Scourge because of this foolish war.
Post by
166613
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Supremacy
You still think that starting a second war is what's best for the Alliance? Varian said that "the Horde" caused more casualties than the Scourge at the Wrathgate. He sure must be confident in the Alliance if he's going to open a war with them now. The ones who died at the wrathgate weren't even fighting a war against eachother. They were fighting side by side. How many more will die if they're fighting eachother instead? Both sides are likely going to get mowed down by the Scourge because of this foolish war.
It's not in anyone's best interests to start a war in the middle of a war. The Lich King laughs, Yogg-Saron laughs, and so forth.
But this isn't a matter of just flying off the handle and challenging everyone around you. This is a rational, justifiable, even logical reaction to the events in WoW. The betrayal at the Wrathgate, and then Thrall standing by during Garrosh's brazen attack on THE KING OF STORMWIND IN A DIPLOMATIC MEETING.
It has nothing to do with overconfidence in the forces of the Alliance. It's the realization that the Alliance cannot afford to trust the Horde. And if we're going to nitpick, technically, Garrosh's actions are an act of war.
Varian's just not going to lay there and take it, anymore.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
166613
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Skreeran
If the Horde cannot prevent internal betrayal, or punish it adequately when it occurs, then there's no reason to work with them As far as attacking...yes, the argument can be made that King Wrynn is over-reacting; he should let the internal dissension in the Horde tear it apart. The counter-argument would be that by waiting, a militant group in the Horde could gain control and attack first.
Horde can't stop inner problems?I mean.. a little force of demons and a major betrayal certainly are on the same level of the Defias Brotherhood and the little gnolls and orcs who attack Redridge.Who can forget about Darkshire?What about Gnomeregan?And about the power struggle between Tyrande and Fandral?
I mean... no one from the Alliance have
ever
betrayed
the Alliance because of things like demons and such.
Varian's actions are to defend his people but to attack the Horde.
*points to Lady Katrana Prestor as well*
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