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Debate: Do the ends justify the means?
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Post by
ASHelmy
Yeah, I'm not debating abortion here. Make a new thread. I would love to have this debate
again
. I must've done it at least a hundred times now. I've heard it all.
What? Abortion? I mean there's not really any debate, I'm guessing your opinion is that something that will become alive should be treated as alive, and my opinion is that something isn't alive until it has experienced life.
I just have to say this:
O'rly?
Edit
No. Because, if saving the world meant I had to kill every living thing, what would be the point in saving the world?
That and I like ducks.
If you kill everyone, you are not really saving the world, are you?
Post by
TheMediator
Yeah, I'm not debating abortion here. Make a new thread. I would love to have this debate
again
. I must've done it at least a hundred times now. I've heard it all.
What? Abortion? I mean there's not really any debate, I'm guessing your opinion is that something that will become alive should be treated as alive, and my opinion is that something isn't alive until it has experienced life.
I just have to say this:
O'rly?
Yes. Until it has taken a breath, seen a ray of life, heard a sound, I don't consider it alive; I just consider it a sac of meat that blood is flowing through, like your junk.
Post by
ASHelmy
Yeah, I'm not debating abortion here. Make a new thread. I would love to have this debate
again
. I must've done it at least a hundred times now. I've heard it all.
What? Abortion? I mean there's not really any debate, I'm guessing your opinion is that something that will become alive should be treated as alive, and my opinion is that something isn't alive until it has experienced life.
I just have to say this:
O'rly?
Yes. Until it has taken a breath, seen a ray of life, heard a sound, I don't consider it alive; I just consider it a sac of meat that blood is flowing through, like your junk.
:S, It is alive, the cells are active, it has some form of life, whether is has experiences (or a soul, whatever you want) is pointless, you are saying that we should kill animals, since they obviously don't feel and experience as we do.
Post by
MyTie
So.. this is transfering to the new thread I just made... now.
Post by
ASHelmy
So.. this is transfering to the new thread I just made... now.
Didn't see it, sorry.
Post by
Ghoso
If the means contradict the end, then no.
Which is more often than not.
"Hey Steve, lets produce awesome, cheap shoes so people can be more comfortable for less money!"
"Great idea Mark, people will love us! Oh, and we'll do it while
making
allowing underages children work in unsafe conditions endlessly for pennies a week."
"Also a great idea!"
Post by
TheMediator
Yeah, I'm not debating abortion here. Make a new thread. I would love to have this debate
again
. I must've done it at least a hundred times now. I've heard it all.
What? Abortion? I mean there's not really any debate, I'm guessing your opinion is that something that will become alive should be treated as alive, and my opinion is that something isn't alive until it has experienced life.
I just have to say this:
O'rly?
Yes. Until it has taken a breath, seen a ray of life, heard a sound, I don't consider it alive; I just consider it a sac of meat that blood is flowing through, like your junk.
:S, It is alive, the cells are active, it has some form of life, whether is has experiences (or a soul, whatever you want) is pointless, you are saying that we should kill animals, since they obviously don't feel and experience as we do.
My toe has cells that are alive. Cutting off my toe isn't murder. So killing cells isn't murder. I wouldn't say killing animals for no reason is acceptable, because they see, hear, smell, breath, just like a human does. A fetus doesn't those things... I consider it an appendage until it leaves the body and does those things.
EDIT: Gonna copy my comments to the other thread.
Post by
Skyfire
PS: If someone brings up religion, you will be punished swiftly and surely by the gods of forum posting.
Why should the morality of the means be justified by subjectivity? Isn't that dangerous, for the mind and
soul
?
Having a soul does not require that you be religious.
Post by
TheMediator
PS: If someone brings up religion, you will be punished swiftly and surely by the gods of forum posting.
Why should the morality of the means be justified by subjectivity? Isn't that dangerous, for the mind and
soul
?
Having a soul does not require that you be religious.
I would say the concept of a soul is a religious one.
Post by
Skyfire
I would say the concept of a soul is a religious one.
Perhaps in origin, but I was referring to the soul established by Plato and Socrates.
Post by
Random0098
Yup Yup
Post by
TheMediator
Alright, bumping this thread so we can get the debate started again (I think its kind of unfair that a little kid raiding a solid debate results in a lock).
Post by
Arideni
Such a broad, sweeping debate. The ends justify the means when it results in something beneficial to all of those involved. If negative results are probable, then no the ends do not justify the means. There's always a choice.
Post by
Sagramor
If you want to generalize, then, no. The ends do not justify the means.
Of course we never generalize here at Wowhead, so the end only justifies in small occasions, and when the means itself aren't too wrong.
The means, in most ways, don't justify the ends. If you say they do, then you support terrorists, or the Nazi. Take Hitler, for example. His "end" was to have a perfect world where everyone would be perfect (in his eyes), socially equal and live in a society with no crime. Beautiful ending, no? But let's take a look at his means. He had to cause the biggest genocide in human history to try and achieve his goal. Thus, the means do not justify the ends.
Post by
TheMediator
Such a broad, sweeping debate. The ends justify the means when it results in something beneficial to all of those involved. If negative results are probable, then no the ends do not justify the means. There's always a choice.
I hate to throw what you said back into your face, but in another thread you said murder is murder is murder. That seems to imply that either you do not consider the consequences of an action and only consider the wrongness and rightness of it, so either murder is acceptable or murder isn't.
I wanted to ask you about the train situation in the other thread -
10 lives are on a train, you can save them if you murder someone.
Will you murder them? Is it not murder anymore because you're saving someone?
Post by
ruleofthumb
Such a broad, sweeping debate. The ends justify the means when it results in something beneficial to all of those involved. If negative results are probable, then no the ends do not justify the means. There's always a choice.
In an ideal world, yes. You, me, and everyone else out there knows we don't live in ideal world. In today's society the ends doesn't come without a sacrifice in one way or another.
As for war; human evolution has ingrained the idea and act of war in order to defend our family and homes, along with gaining land for our family and homes.
Survival of the fittest. Its how and why we are all here today. Because someone somewhere made a choice that they didn't like.
Post by
Arideni
The OP poses no moral tone. Any morality in this thread has been injected by the users in response to such a general topic. That the topic was made so plainly is likely the intention of the OP, to provoke discussion. However, it's a discussion on consequence and action, not morality.
To pose a hypothetical scenario is to go beyond the scope of the OP and into specific details which were not originally given.
p.s. I never mentioned sacrifice. To sacrifice something goes beyond "justifiable" for the essence of a "sacrifice" is for an object to succumb to another. We can have a thread on worthy sacrifices later.
Post by
Skyfire
The OP posed no moral tone because the poster didn't want to inject his opinion into the OP. ;)
Post by
113979
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Arideni
You have impact -- you just haven't infected the thread with an off topic opinion like most other replies.
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