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Expertise in 3.1 Mutilate
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Post by
4466
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Zxian
do u mind linking ur leet gear then? so i can farm and be like u xD
Check the sig for my armory link. Or you can just farm the stuff from the list I provided for your own gear.
30-35? lolno.30% unbuffed....
lolyes?
Do your homework before you cuss people out. It's only about 3 minutes worth of data, but I didn't feel like wasting any more time on proving you wrong.
We are'nt prioritizing HR or Expertise. Whatever works best is what we prioritize.And if HR and Expertise aren't "best" before you're capped, what is? You've just said that I'm wrong, but haven't shown anybody what's right?
My point is losing a SnD due Envenom got dodged, you seriously need to rethink and use Envenom earlier. Or more often.Or.... you could just get some expertise rating and never have
any
attack get dodged. That way when you hit that Envenom button, you
know
that SnD will be refreshed. Melee, Mutilate, Envenom, Rupture (I think?) can all get dodged, which basically makes up everything you do (aside from poisons). And again, if any physical attack doesn't land, your chance to apply poisons is zero.
Post by
Zxian
We ARE prioritizing Hit and Expertise up to a point. Before soft caps, they're our most valuable stats. There's plenty of empirical evidence on EJ supporting this. I guess you're right -- whatever works best. Hit up to the spell hit cap and Expertise up to the dodge cap are what work best.
It's not even just empirical evidence that proves this (although it does help to have it), there's the logical side of things as well. Attacks that don't land have a zero percent chance of applying poisons. If you push the poison miss chance off the table, then each time the poison procs, it will either hit or crit, doing more damage than zero.
You can work out the math to find out exactly how many poison procs you'll have based on hit and expertise rating (the spreadsheet does this, actually). If you sit down and roll through the numbers, you'll find that point for point, expertise and hit rating are the most valuable up to their respective soft caps (315HR unbuffed, ~250HR with spriest/boomkin, 214 Exp Rating).
People keep saying "there are no magic numbers", but in fact... there are some numbers that are more valuable than others.
Post by
Huurka
30-35? lolno.
We are'nt prioritizing HR or Expertise. Whatever works best is what we prioritize.
My point is losing a SnD due Envenom got dodged, you seriously need to rethink and use Envenom earlier. Or more often.
Do you even play a Mutilate Rogue? Between IP, DP, and Envenom, yes... 30-35% and sometimes even more of our damage is poison based. Here's a
WWS parse
of me pushing nearly 40% poison damage while doing over 6k dps. Feel free to peruse the rest of the report and look at other single target fights (Kologarn or even Auriaya) where I maintain a similar breakdown.
We ARE prioritizing Hit and Expertise up to a point. Before soft caps, they're our most valuable stats. There's plenty of empirical evidence on EJ supporting this. I guess you're right -- whatever works best. Hit up to the spell hit cap and Expertise up to the dodge cap are what work best.
Losing an SnD to a late Envenom missing isn't poor play -- its poor gear. Clipping an SnD close to the expiration in order to pool energy is a smart decision when you're trying to squeeze out every last ounce of DPS.
I play a Mutilate rogue.
17+10 = 40. okay.
I'd rather stick to DPSing on my own character. I'm doing perfectly fine DPS. I am currently winning over all the other rogues in my guild by 400-500 DPS.
The other rogues are pretty much in the same gear as mine, I'm spamming Envenom when I've got 5 stacks and the others are keeping Rupture 100% of the time. This is from my personal experience.
And the other rogues are stacking Expertise while I have 14-16 Expertise.
Post by
Zxian
17+10 = 40. okay.
I'd rather stick to DPSing on my own character. I'm doing perfectly fine DPS. I am currently winning over all the other rogues in my guild by 400-500 DPS.
The other rogues are pretty much in the same gear as mine, I'm spamming Envenom when I've got 5 stacks and the others are keeping Rupture 100% of the time. This is from my personal experience.
And the other rogues are stacking Expertise while I have 14-16 Expertise.
Some people count envenom as poison damage (since it consumes poisons and requires poisons to work). 17+12+10 =39, which is close enough to 40.
Let me ask a different question - have you ever got your expertise up to 26? What would you have to sacrifice in terms of other stats in order to do so? Could you eat some expertise food to get you some extra rating? Sorry to say, your personal experience goes against what LOTS of other people have tested, calculated, and played. If you haven't done so already, go play with a spreadsheet to figure out the numbers. You can even go into the calculations tabs to see how each stat affects the damage of each attack.
When it comes down to it, PvE DPS is a giant, multivariable optimization game. What parameters do I tweak in order to get the best results? Usually, there is only one correct answer for a given spec.
Post by
Huurka
17+10 = 40. okay.
I'd rather stick to DPSing on my own character. I'm doing perfectly fine DPS. I am currently winning over all the other rogues in my guild by 400-500 DPS.
The other rogues are pretty much in the same gear as mine, I'm spamming Envenom when I've got 5 stacks and the others are keeping Rupture 100% of the time. This is from my personal experience.
And the other rogues are stacking Expertise while I have 14-16 Expertise.
Some people count envenom as poison damage (since it consumes poisons and requires poisons to work). 17+12+10 =39, which is close enough to 40.
Let me ask a different question - have you ever got your expertise up to 26? What would you have to sacrifice in terms of other stats in order to do so? Could you eat some expertise food to get you some extra rating? Sorry to say, your personal experience goes against what LOTS of other people have tested, calculated, and played. If you haven't done so already, go play with a spreadsheet to figure out the numbers. You can even go into the calculations tabs to see how each stat affects the damage of each attack.
When it comes down to it, PvE DPS is a giant, multivariable optimization game. What parameters do I tweak in order to get the best results? Usually, there is only one correct answer for a given spec.I have had 26 expertise. Dropped down to 14-16 due new gear.
No difference in my DPS.
I mean, no critical loss. My DPS increased due better gear.
Post by
261871
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Huurka
I am too topping DPS meters.
Quote where I said it was useless.
Post by
261871
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
305236
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Zxian
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Silvermoon&n=Backstabalot
this is the link to my armory currently i have around 25 expertise and that is with almost fully gemming for expertise
with current gear would changing any of my enchants or gems help increase my dps at all?
not bothering with posting my dps since i dont have any linkable proof currently
Trade the 20hit enchant on your gloves for
Crusher
or
Major Agility
. Swap out the 16AP/12stam gem from your belt or head for a
Guardian's Twilight Opal
to push you over the expertise rating cap of 214 (you're 7 short at the moment).
I'd be half tempted to tell you to replace the Icewalker enchant on your boots with something like
Greater Assault
, but you don't have that much crit rating to begin with...
Post by
Zxian
...but you're losing potential damage by not hitting with all your finishers.
Not only that, but going by what many have tested and simulated using the spreadsheet, missing an Envenom when SnD is about to run out is far more costly than just the lost Envenom. Your melee damage drops by 40%, your poison proc rate drops by 40%, and your energy regen rate drops by roughly 40%.
Simply spamming Envenom to make up for it is no solution. Have you ever been the only melee DPS in a group with bleeds (I was on our Naxx25 run last week)? How do you keep HfB up in that situation?
Post by
305236
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Huurka
Simply spamming Envenom to make up for it is no solution. Have you ever been the only melee DPS in a group with bleeds (I was on our Naxx25 run last week)? How do you keep HfB up in that situation? Adapting.
Tell your guild to recruit more melee dps. (1 is really low).
I am open for changes, please tell me where I can find "26 expertise = win" so I can follow it properly. Never seen one on elitistjerks.com
Post by
Zxian
Tell your guild to recruit more melee dps. (1 is really low).
I am open for changes, please tell me where I can find "26 expertise = win" so I can follow it properly. Never seen one on elitistjerks.com
So... enhance shammies, ret pallies, and DK's don't count as melee dps? We had a warrior tank, but other than that, it was the three above mentioned classes. Plenty of melee DPS in the group without gimping ourselves on KT.
I ran OS10 on my DK last night (tanking) and my friend was the single rogue in the group - no warriors, and no hunters (some pets can bleed IIRC...). Being the only melee dps in the group, he had to fend for himself when it came to bleeds.
Expertise at 26 is win because it adds consistency to your attacks. It means you waste zero energy on failed attacks. Mutilate is all about the energy efficiency in terms of our damage output (2CP for 55 energy, free SnD forever, etc etc). By ignoring it and maxing all other stats, you're trying to shove a square peg into a round hole.
Post by
245188
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
176977
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Abyssalhand
Capping Expertise is a must for Mut & HaT spec.
You don't want to lose any of your finishers, especially an Envenom for Mut.
Actually, it's about your own play-style, "When will you use Envenom?". Envenom when the SnD still have 5sec+, being dodged once is okay. Envenom at last second, being dodged then "oh $%^&!".
However, you should always Envenom when you have 90+ energy, so you could Mut twice with the Envenom buff. Which leads to a situation that you may always Envenom when SnD is going to fade.
That's why you should cap Expertise, just to make everything under control.
Post by
261871
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Huurka
Tell your guild to recruit more melee dps. (1 is really low).
I am open for changes, please tell me where I can find "26 expertise = win" so I can follow it properly. Never seen one on elitistjerks.com
So... enhance shammies, ret pallies, and DK's don't count as melee dps? We had a warrior tank, but other than that, it was the three above mentioned classes. Plenty of melee DPS in the group without gimping ourselves on KT.
I ran OS10 on my DK last night (tanking) and my friend was the single rogue in the group - no warriors, and no hunters (some pets can bleed IIRC...). Being the only melee dps in the group, he had to fend for himself when it came to bleeds.
Expertise at 26 is win because it adds consistency to your attacks. It means you waste zero energy on failed attacks. Mutilate is all about the energy efficiency in terms of our damage output (2CP for 55 energy, free SnD forever, etc etc). By ignoring it and maxing all other stats, you're trying to shove a square peg into a round hole. By melee DPS I obviously meant someone with bleeds. It helps on trash too.
Still I see no sauce.
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