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Why is GHeal bad for Discicpline?
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Post by
PrimeSonic
...
1) Show me a combat report using Greater Heal as your main heal...
No one ever said to use it as a main heal. You might as well as to use Prayer of Mending as a main heal.
The whole point was that there is still no good reason to completely unbind this spell if you can find a way to use it, albeit infrequently.
You've clearly missed the point here and this wasn't what I was trying to get at nor is it a conclusion I ever pushed.
Post by
Xuxa
I was going to avoid this topic, but I guess I'll chime in with my input.
I think the main point is that in MOST situations, for a disc priest, F.Heal is simply a better choice. It's faster, you can proc many small shields which is nice because it creates a situation where damaged taken by the tank is perceived as slower, a phenomenon that block rating also creates (on the tanks gear). Flash heal is easier to fit between your CD on penance and shield. Flash heal is cheap due to the Glyph. RIght now, a big G.Heal crit may be wasted because DA doesn't stack.
ARE THERE situations that its better to use GHeal? Sure. Do you have to use them in those situations, absolutly not, but if you number crunch the numbers come out in favor of GHeal.
Examples... healing the MC'd add on Instructor Raz. Why? Because he needs to be healed by tens of thousands at any given time. There is no risk of over healing, and given the massive damage he takes, the shield will probably not be wasted.
Healing damage that is consistent and/or damage you know is coming.
Examples- Loathob, usually we use Prayer of Healing, but if someone in another group needs a big heal, you can precast and make the heal land right after the aura comes off.
Or maybe in AN (the final boss), if you know your tank is bad at dodging the slams, you can precast a GHeal on them that lands immediatly after taking the slam hit, and if they do successfully dodge it, you can cancel it.
THis argument is dumb, btw.
Post by
Ethix
1) Show me a combat report using Greater Heal as your main heal, and show me the overhealing done.
2)Show me a combat report using Flash Heal as your main heal, and show me the overhealing done.
I could provide you with a wws of a druid and I main tank healing 25 OS 3 Drake, but it's expired off the site since I don't pay for wws. Of course it would have a lot of overhealing, but on a fight where
HAVE
to keep the tank at maximum hps while taking massive amounts of damage-- greater heal indispensably better than flash heal. Who cares about overhealing imo. As long as the target you are healing lives, and you don't run out of mana. That's the bottom line of healing.
I see a lot of the priests posting x and y in this thread, but it seems to me like the experiences and examples posted don't reflect the fullest of what end game content has to offer. When maximum heals per second is needed, greater heal is the preferred choice.
Inspiration procs is a moot point when comparing flash to greater as a disc priest. If you're casting penance, then it will apply it.
Post by
Xuxa
I don't think the HPS on a druid tank during sarth3d would make a difference between FHeal/GHeal, and whichever you can use to keep him up is fine. Since you are spamming the heals anyways, the shields and procs will stay up, over healing isn't much a concern, ect.
But, remember that if you were a healer of lesser gear, being precise and efficient would probably call for using FHeal instead of GHeal, so you can avoid ANY over healing and ensure you get the full use out of every shield.
Post by
269406
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
karlusdavius
1) Show me a combat report using Greater Heal as your main heal, and show me the overhealing done.
2)Show me a combat report using Flash Heal as your main heal, and show me the overhealing done.
I could provide you with a wws of a druid and I main tank healing 25 OS 3 Drake, but it's expired off the site since I don't pay for wws. Of course it would have a lot of overhealing, but on a fight where
HAVE
to keep the tank at maximum hps while taking massive amounts of damage-- greater heal indispensably better than flash heal. Who cares about overhealing imo. As long as the target you are healing lives, and you don't run out of mana. That's the bottom line of healing.
I see a lot of the priests posting x and y in this thread, but it seems to me like the experiences and examples posted don't reflect the fullest of what end game content has to offer. When maximum heals per second is needed, greater heal is the preferred choice.
Inspiration procs is a moot point when comparing flash to greater as a disc priest. If you're casting penance, then it will apply it.
Ok
If you are spamming greater heal on a tank in sarth 3d then something is wrong with
A: Your gear
B: Your tanks gear
I solo heal our tank and it changes pretty much every week and i have never had to use greater heal.
Of course it would have a lot of overhealing
You just argued against your own points. If there is a lot of overhealing involved then why use greater heal? surely flash heal is much better.
Who cares about overhealing imo
Pretty much everyone? Come 3.1, 100% everyone. Low overheal means your a good healer.
Inspiration procs is a moot point when comparing flash to greater as a disc priest. If you're casting penance, then it will apply it.
Your point is a moot point, since casting flash heal or greater heal will proc it. Sam mearly states that you have a higher chance of upkeep using flash heal rather than greater heal. Leave Penance out of it.
Everybody has thier own play style. If you number crunch you will probably find greater heal to be better. However, number crunching is just that. It doesn't take into account any of the encounters mechanics or situations that may arise that require you to move, stop casting, or get stunned. Therefor, for me, number crunching should always be taken with a pinch of salt. Fidn what works best for you. Plenty of people here have given very good, clear and concise answers as to the pro's and con's of each spell.
Post by
240805
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Ethix
Pretty much everyone? Come 3.1, 100% everyone. Low overheal means your a good healer.
Everybody has thier own play style. If you number crunch you will probably find greater heal to be better. However, number crunching is just that. It doesn't take into account any of the encounters mechanics or situations that may arise that require you to move, stop casting, or get stunned. Therefor, for me, number crunching should always be taken with a pinch of salt. Fidn what works best for you. Plenty of people here have given very good, clear and concise answers as to the pro's and con's of each spell.
I'm talking about right now. Come 3.1 I'm full holy (just so much throughput possible and we have shaman tank healers) and will use two regen trinkets (sad face) more than likely.
The difference between using flash and greater heal is generally a play style difference. I prefer to spam greater heal on 3 drake sarth because we use a mana sponge low avoidance druid tank with 42k hp with the debuff. I generally have low amounts of overheal because of that. On every other fight (patchwerk etc) I use flash heal because of the high amount of overheal involved with gheal.
The main point I'm trying to make is that in terms of raw output-- greater heal is the highest hps as of right now. Come 3.1 with the mana regen nerfs and imp flash heal-- greater heal should be essentially unbinded for disc priests.
Also Seneca, with 7 healers and skill playing a huge factor-- gheal won't really be an ideal spell. Speed is only way to get healing numbers up with that many healers...kind of why I've forced our 2nd druid and 3rd priest into dps roles for now ;)
4/5 healing content right now just makes it so much more interesting and not a boring face roll =/
Post by
240805
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
karlusdavius
Would be nice to leave penance out of it since it is a flash vs greater debate.
Also, here is the new patch notes description for Divine Aegis
Divine Aegis: Divine Aegis effects will now stack, however the amount absorbed cannot exceed 125*level (of the target). It will also now take into account total healing including overhealing
Includes overhealing...
Post by
240805
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
karlusdavius
Also, here is the new patch notes description for Divine Aegis
...
Includes overhealing...
Overhealing DAs you could trigger with Penance and not waste truckloads of mana via Greater Heal, since mana regen is getting bombed.
Yep
Post by
razzem
Does this make you want to take 18 points into Holy to get -15% cost to Penance?
I've looked at it, but it seems like I sacrifice too much in Discipline to pick up Improved Healing in Holy.
I wish Healing Prayers was reachable for Disc.
Post by
Ethix
Penance heals for around the same amount as Greater Heal from a Disc Priest, only Penance does it faster, with more chances for DA procs. Therefore, since Penance works in bursts, it's actually better hps than Greater Heal, not even considering hpm, in which Disc wins by a long shot.
I try to bring up penance as a way of arguing for gheal earlier and applying inspiration, then get slammed. So I leave out penance when considering flash heal against gheal and get slammed. Which is it!
Post by
240805
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Samanosuke
The whole point was that there is still no good reason to completely unbind this spell if you can find a way to use it, albeit infrequently.
You've clearly missed the point here and this wasn't what I was trying to get at nor is it a conclusion I ever pushed.
The main thing is...
Gheal requires 5(
FIVE
) talent points in order for it to be useable.
Why then would you spend 5 talent points on a "situational" or otherwise "infrequently" used ability?
Gheal is something you have to be spec'd into.
Spending 5 points on a healing spell that can be done better by Flash Heal makes no sense...Maybe it's just me.
Especially once 3.1 rolls around, a choice is going to have to be made, whether to pick up talents like the new Focused Will that adds 1% crit per point or Divine Fury.
I try to bring up penance as a way of arguing for gheal earlier and applying inspiration, then get slammed. So I leave out penance when considering flash heal against gheal and get slammed. Which is it!
I was referring to the practice of keeping Inspiration up on multiple targets (Penance 1 target, Flash Heal others....can keep inspiration up alot eaiser than with Gheal)
The main advantage of Flash Heal is that it gives you the ability to TIME you heals
incrementally
.
That is to say, rather than heal as 1 large sum you can heal in smaller portions with player defined wait times between each.
Comparing healing to putting out small fires.
Imagine you have a big bucket that can carry water in which to pull the small fires out.
The areas where the fires are spawning are 15ft away from where you fill the bucket (representing the GCD)
Gheal is comparable to having to sit and wait for the entire bucket to fill up in order to put out the fires (of which got larger while you were waiting for the bucket to fill...or perhaps you dumped an OVERLY LARGE amount of water on a small fire).
Flash Heal is comparable to only letting half the bucket fill in order to throw what you have on a small fire
BEFORE
it becomes large.
Both of which are just to stall (filler) until the firetruck(penance) comes.
Moving past that....
What tends to happen with Disc more often than not, is that the combination of incoming heals on the tanks from other healers combined with the Shield effects creates bursts where no damage CAN be healed.
Between these breaks of no damage to heal on the primary target, I throw a Flash Heal or Shield to other ailing party members to supplement the other healers.
Is there really any reason you SHOULDNT, throw a shield for instance, at one of the other tanks inbetween these windows of no damage (or to a dying party member in hopes that you can buy the raid heals time to heal em up)?
Or throw a flash heal out in the case that the member has weakened soul debuff.
Flash Heal suits this purpose as a fast multipurpose ability.
It can be cast quickly on this other target you are healing.
When you resume healing on your primary target, you don't have as much of a delay as you would have had if you use Gheal instead.
As for the situation you keep brining up where a Disc priest MUST spam Gheal else the tank will die (due to Gheal slightly increased output).
-Blizzard is trying to avoid this situation, not because it is HARD, but rather, they do NOT want people spamming 1or 2 buttons. For priests in particular, they are making a shift for them to use all or more of the spells in their arsenal.
Also, if the situation is that bad....Geeze, I suggest bringing another healer to heal that target.
Here
is a WWS of most of Naxx25 with me not using Greater Heal and another Disc priest, Sarunan, using Greater Heal. Enjoy.
Looking at each fights individually (on fights that downed bosses):
Gothik the harvester.
Spell---------heal amount---------%of healing----#used---------% of heal as overheal
Flash Heal--------131 757------------28 %----------16---------------64 %
Greater Heal-------37 947------------8%------------4----------------
93 %
Four Horsemen
Greater Heal------229 183------------21 %------------15-------
50 %
Flash Heal------- 221 271------------20 %------------26-------26 %
Saph
Flash Heal--------180428-------------21 % -------------26------------26 %
Greater Heal-------156 035-------------18 %------------10-------------
70 %
KT
Greater Heal------252 849------------- 30 %------------20--------------
73 %
Flash Heal-------- 207 151 -------------25 %-------------31-------------38 %
Malygos
Flash Heal---------244 153----------------32 %--------------32-------------52 %
Greater Heal--------74 470----------------10 %--------------5---------------
72 %
As you can see based on this priest that "uses Gheal".
Gheal when used has nearly DOUBLE the overheal than that of Flash Heal. Making its "mana efficiency" a moot point.
If you look at the report OVERALL, the reason that you see this:
Spell---------heal amount---------%of healing---------#used---------% of heal as overheal
Flash Heal-------1 782 475---------------25 %-------------234--------------43 %
Greater Hea------1 364 868--------------19 %------------101---------------65 %
Is because they wiped on 4 horsemen twice (3 total attempts).
I'm making a guess here that this priest was placed in the back with 1 tank and possibly another healer, where the opportunity for large fully or mostly effective heals was present thus skewing the data a bit in favor of Gheal.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Hyjal&n=Sarunan
If he would...
1)Drop IDS (same for you Seneca)
2) Pick up renewed Hope
3) Drop all points of Divine Fury
4) Pick up Inspiration
He would be more effective.
As the data illustrates...the
effectivenes
s of Gheal compared to Flash Heal is questionable.
Taking a look at the fight it performed best in, 4 horsemen...
Greater Heal------229 183------------21 %------------15-------50 %
Flash Heal------- 221 271------------20 %------------26-------26 %
The difference in healing is a mere 8k.
Now...what if instead of 15 Gheals, he had instead used +30 Flash Heals.
Is it not reasonable to assume that it would have resulted in increased effectiveness?
Now he has to ask himself, "Is the 5 talent points investment into Gheal/Divine Fury actually worth it ?"
Post by
PrimeSonic
Way too much
1) 25mans are not the place I'd be using GHeal. I can bet you that most of that overheal is because of getting heal sniped. Even in 10mans I'm not sure it's all that great, but on certain fights it was needed (Instructor).
2) You talk about how great Inspiration is and what a crime it is to spend 5 talents on specing GHeal. Guess what: you have to spend an extra 5 points in Holy to get to Inspiration anyways. Renew, as it is, is really tough on mana so investing in it is still questionable.
So, again I repeat myself: there's places where it can be used, times where it can be useful. You just decided to do a case study on a situation where it clearly is not. Congratulations, you just wasted half your post.
And obviously, if you're going to complain about the 5 "wasted talents": you have to spend them anyways if you want Inspiration.
If anything, now you'd have to show why Imp. Renew +whatever 2 talents left are so much greater than GHeal, since that's the real choice being made. But who in their right mind would compare apples and guinea pigs?
Post by
karlusdavius
Personally, i love imp. renew. And personally, i won't be taking the penance glyph. therefor im keeping my renew glyph too. I will probably be looking at ticks of around 2800 when fully geared up. hopefully higher. Yes, it maybe a mana sink. but it provides me with a steady pace in order to heal and predict other incoming, larger damage.
I will be taking that and 2/5 Spell Warding. Greater heal is of no use to me. Flash heal is now the spell to go to since its mana cost is reduced and is gains 15% crit rating if someone drops below 50%.
nnnnice.
Post by
240805
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Samanosuke
2) You talk about how great Inspiration is and what a crime it is to spend 5 talents on specing GHeal. Guess what: you have to spend an extra 5 points in Holy to get to Inspiration anyways. Renew, as it is, is really tough on mana so investing in it is still questionable.
If anything, now you'd have to show why Imp. Renew +whatever 2 talents left are so much greater than GHeal, since that's the real choice being made.
Looking at the above WWS.
Spell-------heal amount-------%of healing------#used------% of heal as overheal
Sarunan:
Renew -----695 455----------10 %----------379-----------
17 %
Seneca:
Renew--------445 754----------8 %-------------236--------
16 %
Renew fulfills the role of a supplemental heal quite nicely.
So we would have 3/3 Improved Renew.
Since Gheal can hardly be considered usable without max Divine Fury, the choice of 2 filler points goes to either Spell Warding or Healing Focus. As those would be of more use being passive abilities.
Compared to the amount of overheal Gheal has compared to Renew, I'd had to say on an amount healed to mana basis, it's pretty cheap.
Not just based on its actual healing done, Renew has historically been known to be a super mana efficient heal. Once 3.1 hits, and we no longer receive mana return from heal amounts or DA shields, this will hold even more true.
Currently, with no talents and no spellpower we are looking at this in terms of HPM (Base heal / cost).
Gheal HPM =
3.45
Renew HPM =
2.13
(Assuming heals are actually fully effective)
However Renew takes advantage of Spellpower much more due to its higher coefficient of 188% (compared to 161.35%). This means that for every 1 spellpower you have, the healing power of Gheal goes up by 1.6135, meanwhile Renew goes up by 1.88.
With talents and 2k spellpower, we are looking at...
Gheal =
6.30 HPM
Renew =
10.82 HPM
However, I have to give Gheal credit in that it can crit and produce a shield.
Assuming it has a fully effective crit heal with resulting DA proc, it will then have a HPM of ~
12.29
1) 25mans are not the place I'd be using GHeal. I can bet you that most of that overheal is because of getting heal sniped. Even in 10mans I'm not sure it's all that great, but on certain fights it was needed (Instructor).
Please share with us exactly WHEN and WHERE Gheal should be used then so that we may decide if it is indeed worth its salt and the investment needed.
Patchwerk and Healing the adds during Instructor are 2 examples that seem to ALWAYS be listed (even though I have NEVER had a probelm using Flash Heal instead).
Please also include post-vanilla content in which you have seen that a Gheal would be better than Flash Heal.
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