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DKP guild vs Loot Council Guild - which one you choose?

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Post by TweFoju

we all know that DKP have been one of the looting system that most professional WoW guild use to distribute the loots for their members via points they earn

infact, tbh, i never knew there were a Loot Council guild out there until 2 months ago when i xfered off to another server ( because all these time i thought DKP are a must for every progression guild )

and i just wanna say "WOW" for Loot Council system Guild, that is way better than DKP system guild, in that case, players with the gears that really need upgrade the most would actually get it, unlike DKP, if let say you are a new recruit, then you need the loot for an upgrade, but a senior of the guild have more DKP because obviously he's been there longer, and he want the gear just for fun and collection, that would be Stupid. also i hate officers that always threathen to minus the dkp for some stupid reason aswell

i gear up faster than any of my mates on a guild that use DKP, there should be more guild using Loot Council from now on!

any thoughts on this? what about you? which one would u join? a DKP guild or Loot Council guild?

Post by PuertoRico

DKP seems better off for 25 man raids. Rolling and 'Loot Council' for 10 mans seems better off.

Post by Ethix

my guild just rolls for loot in 10 and 25. this mainly works because almost all of us are rl friends of some sort and we're not immature kids.

dkp can be really annoying and imo only merited when getting certain loot is actually hard to do. getting loot now is exceptionally easy. I personally have not had any experience with loot council...

Post by 232266

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Post by Mongatsumi

TweFoju, you are a great example of why some people hate Loot Councils. Imagine if you will a character named Timmy the Warlock. Timmy has been running with Guild "X" for some time now and has put his time and effort into helping the guild progress. He is also pretty well geared except for his staff, which totally sucks. Recently joining the guild is Sluggo the Warlock who just hit 80 and has a few heroic epics. While running a guild Heroic Naxx, Staff of Ultimate Destiny (making this up, bear with me) drops which is a clear upgrade for both warlocks. Since Sluggo would benefit more from this staff, even though this is his first run, he gets the loot. Now Timmy feels like he's been ripped off for all his time.

While this is just one example, it is actually a good system if the Council is not full of morons. This is easily avoided by having the new raider in question have better gear before joining and making sure he/she is a competent raider before handing loot out to them.

DKP has problems of its own. Hoarding points comes to mind and so does passing on clear upgrades so you can be the first to get Staff of Awesomeness(SoA). Another problem tied with point hoarding is that members that need SoA since its a clear upgrade wont get it because Timmy, who has massive amounts of points due to not needing anything else, could outbid everyone even if its a minor upgrade.

I could go on, but I think I've made my points I wanted to.

Edited for spelling.

Post by TheChilliGod

No system is perfect for everyone, but I feel that less people in general would argue with a system without bias like rolling for loot.
I haven't yet seen the raid, let alone the guild, that doesn't allow open rolls on epic loot.

Post by 118713

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Post by blademeld

Loot council is superior since it's a roundabout judgement, however, I am in more favor of the DKP system.

Because it's unbiased, simpler, and there shouldn't be any arguments.

Unless, a warrior rolls on a caster staff with higher DKP

but that shouldn't happen in a raiding guild, right?

Post by 247802

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Post by 294528

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Post by Meugly

We use a custom DKP system that has been very good for us. For any DKP nerds here, it would probably be considered a DKP-based Suicide Kings system.

The key to the whole thing is in the pricing. There are no set prices, everything is a percentage of your current DKP. Set pieces are 75% I believe. The idea is that when you buy something, you don't get reset to zero, but you do go pretty far toward the back of the line. This discourages DKP hoarding, allows long time members to get the best stuff first, yet still allows newer members to get new gear as well.

In Mongatsumi's all too realistic example above, the player that has been there for a long time will likely have much much more DKP than the new guy, so he would get the super uber staff. However, the new guy would have probably picked up several pieces that night that would have been sharded, for next to no DKP. As the demand for, and thus the desirability of any given item goes down, so does it's price.

This system has nearly completely removed loot drama from the entire raiding guild equation for us.

Post by balu0

ML
Main Spec Roll
all who need it do /roll 100

If you get a loot on that week you are -1 , if you get 2 loot you are on -2..

all administration you have to do, is write the name of the winner and his points..

next item drop, the previous winner rolls, but his roll count -1 lvl lower than the others.. so all who are on 0 gets priority

This system is relatively easy to admin, and ensure that everyone gets loot. + if your guild are not made of greedy bastards , there will be a lot of "pass" as well, to get the other ppl up to gear.

but if your guild is made of unknown ppl, from all around the world, DKP is the most clear way to do things.

Post by 182246

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Post by 92554

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Post by Qanre

We've been using DKP for the 3+ years we've been raiding, and it works for us. Everything is bid on, and we have restrictions in place so that gear still goes to active raiders over apps or once in blue moon raiders (stuff like applicant grace periods, bid multipliers for off spec, alts, low attendance raiders, etc.)

It really comes down to what your officers and members agree to work the best. Loot council distributes the gear more efficiently (as long as your council is made up of people who care about progression), however DKP makes loot more available to everyone.

Post by MrFredII

We recently formed a new guild. We discussed this at the organizational meeting. We decided loot council. Our guidelines are: tanks before healers; healers before dps; mains before alts; main spec before off spec. Must be an upgrade.

I'm dps and on the loot council. So far we have had no problems. Our goal is to award loot so that it is the greatest benefit for the raid. Most of the time we give the drop to the person for whom it is the largest upgrade but not always. We take into account how many raids someone has been with us, how reliable they are, how many upgrades everyone has received recently and make a "fair" decision. As DPS I know that I come last. That great ring with all that hard to come by crit that would be perfect for me is better off going to the healer. Often we have people simply pass on upgrades because they know the raid is better off having it go to someone else.

Random rolls, DKP, suicide kings are all ways to arbitrate between the desires of people who do not share a commitment to each other. We chose not to raid with such people. Also the loot council realizes that this only works as long as we make good choices. Generally when an item drops that one of us could use and the upgrade is comparable, that member of the council abstains.

Post by SignupSucks

any thoughts on this? what about you? which one would u join? a DKP guild or Loot Council guild?

Depends wholly on the structure of the DKP or Loot Council systems in question. There are variations of both. Some DKP or Loot Council systems are worse than simply NBG in terms of loot distribution.

My guild runs a zero sum DKP system we created while playing Everquest, because that - in our opinion - results in the fairest distribution of loot. People who raid more often earn more points, but because points are merely exchanged between players rather than created, points earned by someone who only raids once a week are as valuable as someone who raids every night. The difference is merely in quantity.

I have a bias against loot council because I feel they are much more susceptible to corruption (which is not to say all DKP systems are immune to corruption, as it depends on the logistics of the system), even though I have personally witnessed and participated in a functional loot council system. The other thing about Loot Council is that it requires your officers to know and understand how your members and their classes function and how they value items (e.g. what stats they and their specs value), on top of what is generally best for the guild. To me it just adds way too much overhead for officers to deal with, which is why I would never administrate or help administrate a Loot Council system.

Post by MrFredII

I have a bias against loot council because I feel they are much more susceptible to corruption (which is not to say all DKP systems are immune to corruption, as it depends on the logistics of the system), even though I have personally witnessed and participated in a functional loot council system. The other thing about Loot Council is that it requires your officers to know and understand how your members and their classes and how they value items, on top of what is generally best for the guild. To me it just adds way too much overheard for officers to deal with, which is why I would never administrate or help administrate a Loot Council system.

Yes this places a burden on the officers and loot council members. First from our perspective its not overhead, its part of our job. Running a guild and respecting the desires and goals of the membership imposes a responsibility on us. We were aware of that before we accepted the role, some of our founding members decided not to assume leadership positions specifically for such reasons. With regard to the part I bolded: We have 4 people on loot council, there is no class including DKs that at least one of us has not leveled to 80 and, except for DKs, did not raid with in classic and BC and are not raiding with in wrath. While we "vote" on loot awards you'll notice that we can tie. What actually happens is a discussion where holders of differing opinions explain the rationale behind their choice. So far all decision have been unanimous. We also educate each other about the nuances of gearing each class and spec.

I've been in many guilds and have used most if not all of the "popular" systems to award loot. In my experience a well run loot council is best. So for me the key is to ensure that ours is "well run".

Post by buzz3070

i am more in favor of a loot concil or roll system because dkp favors people who can raid most of the week some people like me who cant raid a lot are normally scrwed out of gear because we dont have the points to bid on tier tokens but i do understand why dkp system can be important as it rewards the people who raid the most with the gulid

Post by Semsesem

Okay so.. If you have Loot Council (LC) or DKP, the same amount of equipment is going to be distributed to the raid, because obviously this does not change the amount of gear dropped by the boss.. In the following it is assumed that when using DKP, it's a bidding system that values items from the players view rather than a fixed price, also it can be assumed that you get a starting amount of DKP when joining the raid team so that when items that would give a small upgrade to a person with a large amount of DKP, you would be able to overbid him since he would most likely not want to spend too much DKP on a small upgrade when he too can decide on what items he needs to upgrade.

Benefits with LC:
It is valued how you perform and taken into consideration what will benefit the raid team the most when giving the item to a person.

Disadvantages with LC:
A LC is only as fair as the council makes it!.. If you have a corrupt council deciding who will get the item, you can have yet so many bad items that you need replaced with the BiS gear that just dropped, but it will still be given away to, say an officer or such, in the guild that might already have a good item in that slot but just wants the item for himself rather than looking objectively at what would benefit the raid the most.

Benefits with DKP:
The more you raid, the more DKP you get and the more gear you get = fairness
You decide on what items you want to spend your DKP and therefore which items you prefer to replace rather than having somebody else judge that for you.
New people joining the raid team, will automatically go through the "trial" period by farming up DKP, or if gear drops that somebody else does not need that much, it will probably be available almost immediately. (Also due to the starting DKP you recieve)
No arguing over why this is more fair than something else since there is a fixed system that depends on a currency.

disadvantages with DKP:
It feels bad to not get an item because somebody else overbid you.
If a single player is a jerk, he can spend a lot of DKP taking a small upgrade for himself rather than giving you the big upgrade (thus also losing a lot of DKP, which means this is not a thing he can repeatedly).. All in all that person would not benefit from this in the long run obviously since he could have spend his DKP on a upgrade that would have been more beneficial to him (and the raid).. so if you assume that you are not raiding with retards, then it is most likely this is not going to happen very often.

Notes:
It should be noted that if you have a very objective and clever loot council that is good at considering as many factors as possible a LC can be more beneficial as the gear with just the right LC is more likely to be as beneficial as possible to the raid team, where as DKP automatically has this overall effect of improving the raid team as much as possible when people bid more on items they really need than items they dont really need that much, though this does not always have to be the case.

All in all:
If you use LC and you have a bad council, DKP is simply better, if you however have a really good LC then that is probably more optimal, no matter the raid size.

Personally:
If I could decide personally I would rather play with DKP than LC because I feel the chance of people being subjective in some way is greater than the chance that DKP's automatic system of rewarding people with the most beneficial item for the raid will fail. I have just seen too many corrupt LC's even in high tier guilds.. situations where it was not involving me or anything but I would still just be thinking... "What a coincidence that an officer gets this very small upgrade rather than a good player who benefits the group a lot gets a huge upgrade".. DKP relies on a safe system while LC relies on people being totally objective and at the same time to consider every factor that affects the change (which is unlikely they are able to)

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