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PTR
10.2.5
PTR
10.2.6
Impale for protection
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Post by
Zakkhar
Your math seems to be wrong. At 22k armor, 3 points give you 3 * 22000 / 180 = 367 AP. I have around 25-26k armor when raid buffed, so i get 417-433 AP from the talent, which is awesome. It is far better than cruelty, even if you have impale. And it scales with gear.
Ah crap, i guess is diidnt multiplied by 3. All in all you get 36 AP for 5 talent points. Wow.
It scales well and is one of the strongest talents in the protection tree. Skipping it is ridiculous.
Lets say you have 20k armor without it - 5/5 will then bring you to 22k armor. Your damage taken from raid bosses goes from 1 - (20000 / (467.5 * 83 + 20000 - 22167.5)) = 45.41% to 1 - (22000 / (467.5 * 83 + 22000 - 22167.5)) = 43.06%, which is over 5% less damage taken. The effect on time to live is even greater. And the talent only gets better as you get more armor, as long as you don't reach the armor cap.
I think you misunderstand my meaning of "scale" in the context. I clearly stated that I meant Gain per talent point. Not scaling with gear or any of such.
I dunno also why you do so much maths here, its totally irrelevant, just makes it more chaotic. It actually makes my idea about the talent being point inefficient more viable.
You get a 5 point talent which offers you over 5% less damage taken and 36 AP. You got a 3 point talent which offers you 10% less damage taken*, at the skill effect that is supposed to be all the time up, reduces the cost of the actual skill and enhances its threat.
Its not about picking one, you can ofc pick both. I just wanted to point out the the talent points put into this may be put somewhere else, much cheaper on gain per point and that maximising that talent (5/5) is not a priority.
* - I read the EH posts and i agree to white damage part, but it still offers more than 3% overall damage taken reduced clearly. 3% is the cap, because that seems to be gain per talent point in Toughness (1% per talent point, Imp Thunderclap takes 3% hence 3% here).
Post by
Sakkura
is your dps significantly higher?
Can't measure it reliably since I don't have WWS for it. Can't rely on recount, though it does put me about 100-200 DPS higher now. Did 1450 DPS on Archavon just now according to recount.
Post by
marklartank
Hmm... Deep wounds scales off weapon damage, so a fast tanking weapon would give some relatively meh Deep wounds damage. Plus you sort of run out of points for important prot talents as well as cruelty (which is an extra important talent when you have impale, since they synergize).
Maybe he has it for testing purposes. I know I had some weird builds in the beta once in a while.
not necessarily. deep wounds, once a laughable talent, is getting a lot of attention right now. some very advanced tanks are taking the talent. i don't think the theorycrafting is done on it yet, but it's intriguing.
cruelty is not as mandatory as you think, since all of your primary abilities have a +15% crit modifer from talents. it does work better with slow tanking weapons, but blizzard has decided to give us those this time around.
i decided to play around with it while leveling (i'm a bit slow - just 78 so far...) and it is wonderful for multi-mob tanking. i'm using
this
, and deep wounds procs on TC or shockwave are simply awesome.
meanwhile (not that it's my primary goal), my dps contribution has gone up considerably while tanking. i can't comment on raiding with DW yet, but at least now i'm open minded about the talent.
Post by
Sakkura
The theorycraft has already shown that deep wounds should be a mediocre talent for raid tanks. However, bleed buffs and AoE tanking as you mentioned may make it useful in some situations.
Cruelty is more important if you have an impale build since crits increase damage more with that talent. But as you can see I could find no reasonable way to get both impale and 5/5 cruelty in the same prot build. As an aside, cruelty is equally good (or bad) regardless of your weapon speed, except if you have deep wounds.
Post by
90927
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
marklartank
the tooltip seems to read "average weapon damage"
i read that as the average damage range of the weapon, not it's dps. so for the weapon i linked above, 203-378 would mean DW procs for 290.
i guess i should check the combat log to verify...
Post by
41852
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Lorkin
The theorycraft has already shown that deep wounds should be a mediocre talent for raid tanks. However, bleed buffs and AoE tanking as you mentioned may make it useful in some situations.
How about Damage Shield being able to crit + applying Deep Wounds to all mobs that hit you (Blocking or not). TC and Shockwave can also proc Deep Wounds to multiple mobs. Eventually the damage (and AoE Threat) builds up? Or is that what you said?
Post by
Zakkhar
How about Damage Shield being able to crit + applying Deep Wounds to all mobs that hit you (Blocking or not). TC and Shockwave can also proc Deep Wounds to multiple mobs. Eventually the damage (and AoE Threat) builds up? Or is that what you said?
Dunno about the actual skill and the actual talent, but Sword Spec proc (warrior/rogue talent) used to proc off damage shields (retri aura, thorns).
Even so i still dont find it very appealing.
Post by
33153
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Zakkhar
Zakkhar are you suggesting that we don't take damage shields? That's really a bad idea. Earlier you said that you don't even have wotlk yet, please don't post false information here.
Damage shields is an awesome skill for both pvp (i once killed a rogue in the arena without even touching him with my wep) and aoe tanking. You misunderstood the statement.
For a several posts there was a Discussion about this talent for prot
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12834
. I find it so unappealing as something which
may
proc of a damage shield crit for some little amount, but which costs 3 talent points.
PS: I dont have wotlk, which doesnt mean i lack experience with 3.0 patch talents. I lack experience with the content, thats why i dont post anything about that.
Post by
205382
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
chocolatebuddha
I stopped reading after 3 pages of specs that make no sense if you are going for Impale.
Impale build
Focused Rage
Why oh why are all of you wasting 3 talent points in Focused Rage? With the Revenge Glyph (which you all should have) 100% of my fights I have NEVER been raged starved. In fact in more situations then not I have been able to spam heroic strike ontop of all of every other cooldown I have (no white swings at all) and still couldn't lose my rage.
Puncture
Again with rage flying around everywhere, this talent is near useless, and on top of that after you get you 5 devastated debuffs(or 3 if you are glyphed) You should only be refreshing this ability every so often, making your rage use minimal at best.
Improved Thunderclap
Here is where the loss occurs. Improved Thunderclap is a great talent, but unnecessary. Great additional threat great cost reduction and great beneficial occurrence.
With Shockwave, Damage Shield, and just one point into Improved Thunderclap I have been able to hold any amount of Trash against an AOE happy hunter and mage. I would love to be able to completely spec in this, but as long as I can hold my AOE agro I would rather bump something more beneficial all around.
Post by
Sakkura
Why oh why are all of you wasting 3 talent points in Focused Rage?
Improved Thunderclap is a great talent, but unnecessary.
/facepalm
You ask why people "waste" talents in focused rage, but you go for improved heroic strike and (lol) tactical mastery. If you're looking for placeholders at least take some that benefit you a little.
Improved thunderclap is not unnecessary. It is invaluable both for 5-mans and raids, and you can get impale without giving it up.
Post by
Zakkhar
I dont use it for anything (yet). I lack wotlk totally and hoped to make a few month break from wow at all. But this game is so addictive i cant stop thinking/forums browsing.
So what your saying is that everything you're posting isn't based on personal experience, it's just regurgitated material from somebody else, or WAG theories?
Read the PS to my post above yours. Ty.
Improved Thunderclap
(...)I can hold my AOE agro I would rather bump something more beneficial all around.
The main benefit from the talent isnt the AoE agro. You can keep aoe agro with the untalented skill and the abilities you posted.
Its the 10% (resulting in 20, which is actually a 100% gain in comparison to untalented skill) slowed enemy white attacks.
Post by
chocolatebuddha
Why oh why are all of you wasting 3 talent points in Focused Rage?
Improved Thunderclap is a great talent, but unnecessary.
/facepalm
You ask why people "waste" talents in focused rage, but you go for improved heroic strike and (lol) tactical mastery. If you're looking for placeholders at least take some that benefit you a little.
Improved thunderclap is not unnecessary. It is invaluable both for 5-mans and raids, and you can get impale without giving it up.
Points have to be spent somewhere, and I guess instead of Heroic Strike you could go for Rend. Tactical Mastery, lol? Has stance dancing gone so far out of peoples skill range that its now considered funny to take an extremely useful talent? Tactical Mastery allows for you to bend and flow with any way that the fight takes you, be it pvp or an extra blast across the battlefield. Stance changes are a staple to the warrior class.
You can get Impale without giving up Improved Thunderclap, but you have to drop more beneficial skills to do so. If you are using thunderclap in your single target threat rotation you need to seriously reevaluate your use of the global cooldown.
I tend to play with a more aggressive style of tank and while I agree that Thunderclap is an amazing mitigation talent I am spending my cooldown on skills to maximize my threat push so that the dps push as hard as they can faceroll across their little keyboards. I have downed every boss currently in Northrend and the only situations where I needed some sort of extra mitigation, was with Malygos and his breath, Imp Thunderclap can't really help with that.
If the coming content patch brings some harder hitting dangerous raid bosses (I hope they do) I will reevaluate my build, but until then my guild loves having me as a tank because they never have to worry about their aggro.
Post by
chocolatebuddha
Impale 2.0
Heres a build that might better suit your tastes.
Switch those points to charge if thats your cup of tea, but again its not really mine.
Post by
Sakkura
Points have to be spent somewhere, and I guess instead of Heroic Strike you could go for Rend. Tactical Mastery, lol? Has stance dancing gone so far out of peoples skill range that its now considered funny to take an extremely useful talent? Tactical Mastery allows for you to bend and flow with any way that the fight takes you, be it pvp or an extra blast across the battlefield. Stance changes are a staple to the warrior class.
You can get Impale without giving up Improved Thunderclap, but you have to drop more beneficial skills to do so. If you are using thunderclap in your single target threat rotation you need to seriously reevaluate your use of the global cooldown.
I tend to play with a more aggressive style of tank and while I agree that Thunderclap is an amazing mitigation talent I am spending my cooldown on skills to maximize my threat push so that the dps push as hard as they can faceroll across their little keyboards. I have downed every boss currently in Northrend and the only situations where I needed some sort of extra mitigation, was with Malygos and his breath, Imp Thunderclap can't really help with that.
If the coming content patch brings some harder hitting dangerous raid bosses (I hope they do) I will reevaluate my build, but until then my guild loves having me as a tank because they never have to worry about their aggro.
Rend is not worth it for tanking.
Tactical mastery is worthless for a prot warrior, since there is almost never a situation where you need to change stances. Need to move to an enemy? Use charge in defensive stance. Need to break fear? Use berserker rage in defensive stance. Need to slow an enemy? Use shield bash in defensive stance, not to mention the stuns you have access to.
Like it or not, blizzard has all but killed stancedancing for prot warriors.
There are very few "more beneficial" skills in the prot tree than improved thunderclap. Reducing attack speed of mobs by 20% instead of 10% is huge, and improving your AoE threat a lot via 30% extra damage on thunderclap is also not negligible. Giving it up means you will always be reliant on a real tank to be brought to your raids (if you do raid).
Lots of boss encounters involve adds in one form or another. Obvious examples in Naxx include Noth and Gothik.
If you need to give up thunderclap (once per 20-odd seconds) to be able to keep threat on the average raid boss, you are doing something horribly wrong. I have no problem keeping DPSers far below me even when they pull crazy DPS numbers out of their sleeve. Dying due to taking too much damage or running your healers OOM is much more likely than a DPSer taking aggro. Not to mention the fact that if a DPSer is about to take aggro, there is a simple way to solve that; if you are dying because the healers cannot keep up with the damage you take, there is much less you can do about it (short of respeccing).
Post by
chocolatebuddha
Rend is not worth it for tanking.
Agreed. Unless you are pushed into a dps role on the fly. (dual spec isnt out yet!)
Tactical mastery is worthless for a prot warrior, since there is almost never a situation where you need to change stances. Need to move to an enemy? Use charge in defensive stance. Need to break fear? Use berserker rage in defensive stance. Need to slow an enemy? Use shield bash in defensive stance, not to mention the stuns you have access to.
Like it or not, blizzard has all but killed stancedancing for prot warriors.
I have found more then enough uses in everyday practice to need Tactical Mastery.
There are very few "more beneficial" skills in the prot tree than improved thunderclap. Reducing attack speed of mobs by 20% instead of 10% is huge, and improving your AoE threat a lot via 30% extra damage on thunderclap is also not negligible. Giving it up means you will always be reliant on a real tank to be brought to your raids (if you do raid).
Lots of boss encounters involve adds in one form or another. Obvious examples in Naxx include Noth and Gothik.
I didnt think about dropping Gag Order for the additional points into Thunderclap, and thats what I would do, but if this is your argument then all prot warriors should spend points deeper into the Fury tree for Imp Demo shout, because its mitigation has a greater effect.
If you need to give up thunderclap (once per 20-odd seconds) to be able to keep threat on the average raid boss, you are doing something horribly wrong. I have no problem keeping DPSers far below me even when they pull crazy DPS numbers out of their sleeve. Dying due to taking too much damage or running your healers OOM is much more likely than a DPSer taking aggro. Not to mention the fact that if a DPSer is about to take aggro, there is a simple way to solve that; if you are dying because the healers cannot keep up with the damage you take, there is much less you can do about it (short of respeccing).
I don't
need
to give up thunderclap to keep aggro on the average raid boss, my argument is that I don't
need
to use thunderclap to mitigate the pathetic damage these bosses deal. Like it or not the current content bosses are pansies. Also I know my rotation like I know the back of my hand, and as the dpsers start catching up in gear with tanks you will find it alot closer (albeit not as close as it used to be) then you think in threat.
All in all you are arguing a point that I agreed with from the get go I just didnt see the talents to drop to get Imp Thunder, now I do and those points lie within Gag Order (although Gag Order is a very sad loss :( )
Post by
99345
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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