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PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Impale for protection
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Post by
172710
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Post by
68244
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Post by
41852
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Post by
172710
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Post by
Jaysap
Cruelty effects EVERY skill a warrior has as long as he has a melee weapon equipped.
Going for Impale > Cruelty is crazy. 5% less crit chance on my white damage? No thanks.
In all reality, how much of your DPS comes from white hits? For me while grinding/leveling, it's about ~25%. That 5% crit only gives you a 1.25% white damage increase. Would you spend 5 talent points just for a 1.25% white damage increase?
Yes, I realize it also affects your yellow damage, I'm just making a comparison. The remaining 75% of my damage is yellow, and Cruelty vs Impale would give an increase of 3.75 vs 15.
Cruelty gives me 5% (1% per point) overall damage increase, Impale a 15% (2.14% per, since you need 7 points above the 5 in Deflection).
Sure, this doesn't take rage generated into account, but I've yet to feel rage starved. And no, it most certainly isn't perfect math - again, I'm just illustrating a point. I was in the Cruelty camp, but I'm beginning to consider the switch to Impale.
Like mbison has stated though,
about 25% is the break even point.
most tests are putting the magic number at 25% crit from base + talents - if you have more than 25% crit, go for impale, less, go for Cruelty.
Post by
68244
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Post by
Boingo
Puncture and Incite are seriously easy drops for heavier in Arms.
* Puncture at 2/3 is simply saving you 2 rage points on your 3rd or 4th priority skill. Devestate isn't what it used to be, and now serves as a rage dump as much as anything else as you should spend most of your time and rage using Thunderclap, Revenge, Shield Slam, Concussive Blow, and whichever shouts you need to keep up.
* Incite while providing a substantial +critical only does so to three abilities, Cleave, Thunderclap, and Heroic Strike. No protection warriors use cleave, so thats moot. Heroic Strike isn't a strong source of damage and exists primarily as a rage dump, meaning you neither up your damage substantially with +crit to heroic strike nor do your up your effective threat as generally when your using Heroic Strike you have plenty of threat. The +15% critical is nice to thunderclap and will raise your speed of establishing threat and the damage you deal when AOE tanking. However the damage increase will be fairly trivial against bosses as you will be relying more on keeping sunder stacked.
On this issue lots of people seem to over value heroic strike. Heroic strike is exceedingly expensive in terms of rage cost and relatively slow, with a necessity to wait for a weapon strike. Most protection warriors currently use the glyph of revenge (i did too but have recently dropped it as the 390 glyphs are trickling into the Auction House). With this glyph virtually any time you will be using heroic strike it will be free, excluding the cost in the rage you would have gained from a normal white hit.
I strongly support stacking Arms for Impale, and possibly even Deep wounds (though with a tanking weapon this damage is likely to remain relatively minor.
This is the build I'm working with:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVMh0fZ0xZVhtrx0zidIzsGo
It lacks Armored to the Teeth in favor of Deep Wounds, a simple substitution is easy enough. In protection it lacks Incite and Improved Spell Reflection (the only remaining protection talents I think are worth taking) I chose Iron Will instead of improved Heroic Strike, as I only use Heroic strike as a rage dump, and fairly rarely even for that. At least Iron Will is usable in the odd PvP situation or in soloing some elites.
There has been some substantial talk about a hefty nerf to vigilance, if this ever takes place I may switch over to a build like this (sacrificing vigilance and last stand for Improved Spell Reflection):
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVMh0fZ0xZVhxrg0zibIzsGo
Just my thoughts.
Post by
41852
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Post by
Lorkin
Once you start seeing upwards of 6k+ shield slams, you'll realize it's only possible with Impale.
Post by
DeathsApprentice
From my experience, this build works really well.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LVMh0bZhZiItrMczidIzsGo
Say/complain all ya' want. @.@ That's all I got the last time I submitted my build...
I'll come see what you guys think. @.@
Post by
138583
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Post by
DeathsApprentice
This is my proposition. May not suit everyone. My playstyle is just pretty agressive, I noticed most of tanks are gearing up and playing pretty passive.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LAM0zbZhLZVIkrxczizIzsGo
I like your spec, except for two minor things.
The lack of Imp Defensive stance, and Imp Spell reflect.
From my experience, my biggest problem in fights is always spells hitting me.
An extra 4% chance for their spells to miss me, is just worth it.
The Improved Defensive Stance, decrease spell damage while in defensive stance by an extra 6%,
AND
Every time you dodge/block/parry, it gives you a 10% damage enrage buff for the next 10 seconds.
The reason I don't like this, is because if you don't have the potential to have that buff, the only time you can possibly use Enraged Regeneration is when you use Bloodrage. So, you basically have to hurt yourself to get the heal.
Also, how often do you go 10 seconds without a dodge, block, or parry? Imp Defensive Stance is almost like having an additional 1-hand weapon spec, except it only costs 2 talent points. :(
Although, always nice to see someone willing to try somethin' new. o-o
Post by
138583
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Post by
Boingo
Love how your confused by a rather plain english post, I guess you just want to be contrary but i'll bite.
Say what? Guess you have never played a protection warrior.
Guess what you say later in your post in defense of Heroic Strike that tanking is about rotation, similarly in your defense of Incite you talk about the upscaling of Thunderclap. Both these things work to defend my point, any tank should with the 1.5 sec cooldown always have better things to use than Cleave. In an AOE situation this will be Thunderclap, shouts, shockwave, and of course revenge and Shield Slam. the result is any time your using Cleave you are telling me none of those skills are up, as they are all better choices to use. Once more Cleave really even only becomes viable as a AOE tool when your mass pulling and glyphed for it, show me the warrior tank doing that for anything other than level grinding. In raids while we are much more useful as AOE tanks with recent changes, we are still outshined by frontloaded threat. In anything beneath that it just wouldn't ever be useful to sacrifice Shield Slam or Revenges in rotation to fit in Cleave.
I cant quite understand this statement. You say white, and than you say black, and after that you begin to talk about totally different issue. Decide, will you?
Thuderclap threat is simply based on its damage (with 1.75 modifier if i am not mistaken), with the changes making it hit infinite number of targets (more than 4 at least) its a must have, and no not for bosses. Raising its crit chance raises your threat generation, simple as it is.
Here is what im saying, as you didnt grasp it the first time. The enhanced Critical helps Thunderclap, but the aid is moot. In AOE situations we should have little to no trouble keeping up our threat (especially with vigilance), yet the +15% approx extra damage is going to be trivial in groups unless you are mass pull grinding. Similarly I put forth that while Thunderclap is quite useful it is situational and drops lower in our rotation in any situation where we aren't mass pulling. As such even a moderate damage increase to a situational skill is going to be at best situational.
Erm 1.6 interval is slow? Global cd is 1.5. Just devastate is faster than this (cause you can spamm it every global cd). If you get faster wep, its nowhere near slow.
You dont look at tanking as the moment. Its a process. Its a rotation.
There are two problems with this. First warriors no longer work on a solid rotation when tanking we work on a priority system. Particularly with sword and board procs we no longer run our 3-5 cooldown skills in order we run things anytime we can when they are up. Second you mis-judge Heroic Strike's speed in two seperate ways. First you propose a fairly low 1hd weapon speed, especially as gearing up this idealized system is rarely present (a large number of tanking swords and maces are 2.0 speed or slower). Second you assume the time it takes to Heroic Strike is simply the weapon attack speed, in reality Heroic strike speed will always be closer to that speed + the GCD as other instant strike skills will approach approximately the GCD in speed, this is due to reality vs idealized situations, no one can time a Heroic strike perfectly in the windows between GCDs, it will always have some overlap where its slowing down your other instant use skills. Similarly you praise the skill's damage with little relevance to the fact that it is a minor amount of damage when you consider you are giving up white attacks for it. However by your own admission Heroic Strike is situational, it is a rage dump I don't appose that but I have a harder time talenting to increase the damage im dealing with a rage dump. This is particularly true when comparing it to reaching third teir Arms for Impale or points in Cruelty which up my damage on nearly everything, and in particular my stand-bys like Shield Slam that will be used whenever up regardly of mob size or rage situation.
Post by
33153
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
DeathsApprentice
There are two problems with this. First warriors no longer work on a solid rotation when tanking we work on a priority system. Particularly with sword and board procs we no longer run our 3-5 cooldown skills in order we run things anytime we can when they are up. Second you mis-judge Heroic Strike's speed in two seperate ways. First you propose a fairly low 1hd weapon speed, especially as gearing up this idealized system is rarely present (a large number of tanking swords and maces are 2.0 speed or slower). Second you assume the time it takes to Heroic Strike is simply the weapon attack speed, in reality Heroic strike speed will always be closer to that speed + the GCD as other instant strike skills will approach approximately the GCD in speed, this is due to reality vs idealized situations, no one can time a Heroic strike perfectly in the windows between GCDs, it will always have some overlap where its slowing down your other instant use skills. Similarly you praise the skill's damage with little relevance to the fact that it is a minor amount of damage when you consider you are giving up white attacks for it. However by your own admission Heroic Strike is situational, it is a rage dump I don't appose that but I have a harder time talenting to increase the damage im dealing with a rage dump. This is particularly true when comparing it to reaching third teir Arms for Impale or points in Cruelty which up my damage on nearly everything, and in particular my stand-bys like Shield Slam that will be used whenever up regardly of mob size or rage situation.
How often do you use heroic strike? Because from the looks of it, you don't know what it does.
Heroic strike is not part of any cooldown. It merely replaces your melee swing with an increased damage version(yellow) through the usage of rage. So the only thing you "sacrifice" when using it, is the rage it costs to use it, and the rage you would've gained to hit for a normal(white) swing. Which, in a lot of situations, because of the Heroic Strike glpyh, mixed with the Incite talent, can change that rage consumption, into a potential rage gain. No, it isn't constant, but the damage is the proof. If you take a tank who has incite, and a tank who skipped it, the one with incite will rack up MUCH higher threat on a raid boss.
Post by
138583
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Post by
Sakkura
Due to the changes in tanking system in 3.0.2 and following patches (removing crushing blows, dodges/parries no longer give rage and increasing the amount and the role SBV has in tanking and AP/damage done has on threat) we had to reconfigure and therefore favour Mitigation talents and gear in favour of Avoidance talents and gear.
Shield blocks and the ability have became best rage builders following by Anger Management and ofc not overbuild passive Avoidance (to get some beating), with the rest of Avoidance hidden in procs. AP/crit/hit/expertise are the same value for an active tank (skills spamming) or even higher than avoidance stuff.
Dodges/parries still give rage after the 3.0 patch the same as they did before. That is, dodge didn't give rage nor does it give rage now, except for the (grossly overpowered) effect of
Blessing of Sanctuary
. Parry gave rage before, and continues to give rage now; the parry haste mechanic is also still in effect.
Tanks should favor both mitigation talents and gear
and
avoidance talents and gear. One does not preclude the other. In terms of gear, you are even rewarded by the ilevel mechanics by spreading your "investment" since stacking single stats costs more than spreading out onto various stats. The diminishing returns on avoidance only reinforces that effect.
As for the passive/active tank thing, I don't know what to say. In my opinion you can still actively use your skills even if you have focused your gear on avoidance. With the added rage efficiency of sword and board and the revenge and heroic strike glyphs, as well as potentially blessing of sanctuary, you should still have plenty of rage to use all your GCD abilities at will. Of course, rage loss would still impact usage of heroic strike (or cleave), with potentially dramatic effects on TPS.
Post by
172710
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
pluto9302
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=LAM0zbZhZVItrxzzidIzsGo
is what i'm running atm, 5.5k shield slam crits are yum
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