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No more frost rading? : (
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Post by
162023
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Post by
167891
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Post by
OscarDivine
some confusing language on the debuff for "winter's grasp" states that the target will be "considered frozen" whatever that means. Now, Assuming that a boss can get this debuff, does it also mean that the boss will be "considered frozen" or is this half of the debuff considered moot for bosses? It sure SOUNDS like a PVE talent usable against raid bosses... If this happens to be the case, we may start seeing frost mages dawning shatter and new combos reserved for the debuffs. I'm going to do me some research and find out about this.
edit: Reading the official forums, it DOES look like this will be effective against raid bosses and the "considered frozen" effect will make shatter combos functional in raid.
So the answer seems to be that it looks like Blizz still intends to keep frost as a viable raid spec.
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602
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168832
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Post by
1212_
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Post by
OscarDivine
More Thoughts on Winter's Grasp (WG):
Put more than one frost mage in a raid with shatter, this could make for some very pretty numbers.
Increased hit capability for ALL Raid members is nice for those who aren't hit capped
Save your Icy Veins CD's for these procs!! More damage, more fun!
Thoughts on Frost Mages in WotLK:
DO NOT FORGET!!!! Death Knights WILL have a frost tree as well! This frost tree does contain abilities that increase Frost Vulnerability, which, I'm fairly certain will be quite nice for Frost mages!
Don't count Frost mages out of PVE raiding yet!
edit: See Death Knight talents: "Frozen Rune Weapon" and "Howling Blast"
Post by
169303
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Post by
OscarDivine
Actually, from what people have seen of the alpha
as of right now
, winter's grasp will apply to bosses, and because of this, alot of theorycraters are saying that there is no way this could ever make it live in its current form because of the incredible damage potential.
Basically the thought is that by stacking a raid with frost mages, you could theoretically have winters grasp constantly up, providing frost mages (and DKs) an almost infinite string of crits, which would subsequently cement frost mages at the top of dps charts, and sideline other dps classes. Personally I have no problem with this, as currently weve been sidelined ourselves-if not completely cut from the squad.
Shhh.... It'll be our little secret.
Post by
1212_
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Post by
OscarDivine
lawl@dwarf mage...
Post by
OscarDivine
WG in its current state won't make it into live.
It can't. The implications would be staggering. Every raid would be stacked with frost mages...and their DPS could not be touched because of shatter.
I'm gonna chalk this up to "alpha" in the same way that in vanilla WoW alpha, mages could be permanently invisible, see everything that was NOT invisible, and even charge up pyroblasts while remaining invisible, only popping out when the spell went off. Also, dwarves could be mages.
So okay then. It seems pretty unanimous that this version of WG won't make the final cut into the release, but SOME version of it will. Regardless, getting back to the OP, any version of this will make mages in frost spec raid-viable.
And in the event that it DOES make it into the release, my Frost Brothers and Sisters: you can finally look back on your Fiery cousins who constantly told you that your spec wasn't raid viable and flip them the bird. :-)
Post by
1212_
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Post by
OscarDivine
Well, let's see how things go in the expansion release. I do think that with all of the changes forthcoming to the mage class, Frost spec may certainly continue to be a strong contender in PVE.
In the same way that many groups like having Boomkins around for their crit aura, I believe that many raids will choose to bring frost mages for the new debuff they'll bring. Again, we also have to consider that a one of the new class specs WILL be Frost, and that there is definitely much room for synergy between the two classes in the frost specs.
When it all comes out in the wash, if Frost does not end up becoming a worthy PVE raiding spec enough for me to still stay in the top 3 DPS for raids, I'll buy you a beer. And if you're underage, I'll make a beer mug macro for you. ;-) If, however, frost DOES end up as a strong PVE raiding spec, then I'll expect a least a high five from you Caribou. ;-)
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1212_
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Post by
JamesKilton
WG in its current state won't make it into live.
It can't. The implications would be staggering. Every raid would be stacked with frost mages...and their DPS could not be touched because of shatter.
I'm gonna chalk this up to "alpha" in the same way that in vanilla WoW alpha, mages could be permanently invisible, see everything that was NOT invisible, and even charge up pyroblasts while remaining invisible, only popping out when the spell went off. Also, dwarves could be mages.
So okay then. It seems pretty unanimous that this version of WG won't make the final cut into the release, but SOME version of it will. Regardless, getting back to the OP, any version of this will make mages in frost spec raid-viable.
And in the event that it DOES make it into the release, my Frost Brothers and Sisters: you can finally look back on your Fiery cousins who constantly told you that your spec wasn't raid viable and flip them the bird. :-)
Now now, that's not nice. Anyone with half a brain knows that things change drastically in an expansion. Whether Fire stays the end-game dps king, or Frost becomes just as or more viable is really yet to be seen and either way, no-one will have any right to say "told ya so".
Personally, I'd love to go back to frost for raiding, but I do what will benefit the guild most.
Post by
XilDarkz
I think "frozen" targets from our own spells should only be broken by us, when and after only WE damage the target afterward, and not others. It's not fair to Frost Mages, especially when they put points into this spec. for critting on Frozen targets, only to get it almost completely useless on raids, or any grouped PvE instance.
Edit: Of course, make it not possible for Frost Nova, though, since that'd be a bit "OP" for Frost Mages in PvE. ;D
Only make it so when they're frozen from the chance % of our frost spells (because of the Frostbite talent) in general, that no one can break them except the Mage himself/herself.
you know, the talent states they'll be considered frozen for 5 seconds. meaning it won't break.
with a tiny bit of spellhaste, you can smash 3 frostbolts into that period, since damage is calculated at start.
Post by
169303
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Post by
XilDarkz
or a bunch of ice lances depending on your global cooldown for some nice dpm.
4 Ice Lances and a Frost Bolt if you have it down to 1sec.
Theres a lot of combos we could potentially use.
Using icelance instead increases the chance to apply Winter's Grasp again, seeing as how it has a 10% chance; greater DPM, and comparable damage. How comparable... I don't wanna do the math.
However, frost mages usually have too much mana. DPM isn't something I've ever worried about when I've specced forst.
Post by
OscarDivine
What I might expect to do in that situation is (and assuming my icy veins has been burned already) frost bolt followed by ice lance. With some haste, you might be able to do it twice. It's only 5 seconds worth of hitting, so you don't have THAT much time to blow out huge casts. With 10% chance to re-apply the debuff, you might see the debuff up again, at which time you'd want to throw ice lances into your FB spams again.
We know that our spell damage is going to scale WAY upward with WotLK, but even still right now with current spell dmg, let's say we do any of the following (and this is based on what my current frost mage does for dmg in raids, assuming Shatter is talented and that ALL hits are crits to simplify math):
3x Ice lance - Based on GCD, you should be able to get three but not 4 or 5 into the 5 seconds.
at around 2300 crits each, you get a max of 6900 damage
OR
Frost Bolt + Ice Lance x 2
5000 + 2300x2 = 9600 dmg
OR
Frost Bolt x2 (If you have the haste to pull it off)
5000x2 = 10000 dmg
The best option for most will be to FB and Ice Lance x2. You'll likely get the most out of each Winter's Grasp. If your icy veins is up you may want to consider just FB Spamming to get the max out of it.
It's fun to play with these numbers, but it may be a moot point once the talent gets modified, which it may likely be. Only time will tell...
Edit: Just a thought... Heroism/Bloodlust + Icy Veins... with Debuff... Holy crap.
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