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Tanks: Warr or Pala * and why?
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Post by
xaratherus
The game has exactly one weapon (Crystalforged Sword) that is stat-balanced for paladin tanks in mind.
Hmm, Phil normally I agree with you but I find fault with this statement.
I know of at least a couple of other weapons that are useful (I'm not 100% certain what you mean by "stat-balanced") - for example,
Seeker's Gavel
(SSO rep item),
Spellfire Longsword
(regular Slave Pens - not the best choice), or
Greatsword of Horrid Dreams
(regular SLabs).
As for armor, the full Righteous set isn't too bad - although I think you'd be better of augmenting one or two pieces of it with non-Paladin-specific gear with higher defense.
Now, is it true that I think they're favoring Warriors over Paladins in regards to main tanking? Yeah - hell yeah they are. And I think that Death Knights are going to change the whole tank synergy, and could hurt tankadins if they aren't balanced correctly. But crying "Doom!" just seems a little unreasonable to me.
Post by
Philmckraken
The game has exactly one weapon (Crystalforged Sword) that is stat-balanced for paladin tanks in mind.
Hmm, Phil normally I agree with you but I find fault with this statement.
I know of at least a couple of other weapons that are useful (I'm not 100% certain what you mean by "stat-balanced") - for example,
Seeker's Gavel
(SSO rep item),
Spellfire Longsword
(regular Slave Pens - not the best choice), or
Greatsword of Horrid Dreams
(regular SLabs).
As for armor, the full Righteous set isn't too bad - although I think you'd be better of augmenting one or two pieces of it with non-Paladin-specific gear with higher defense.
Now, is it true that I think they're favoring Warriors over Paladins in regards to main tanking? Yeah - hell yeah they are. And I think that Death Knights are going to change the whole tank synergy, and could hurt tankadins if they aren't balanced correctly. But crying "Doom!" just seems a little unreasonable to me.
What I meant was: there plenty of caster weapons available. There are tons of 1-handed weapons that are designed for use by warrior tanks. There is one weapon in the game that has both avoidance and spell damage, both of which are useful for paladin tanks. No other class/spec has any real use for a weapon that combines spell damage and shield block rating. The caster weapons are placeholders, unless spell hit suddenly became a crucial stat while I was away this weekend.
It's also no accident that the generic caster weapons are all rep rewards or easy drops, while the Crystalforged Sword requires a rare drop from a summoned boss that requires a group to defeat. It's not impossible to get, but certainly harder than getting revered with KoT or exalted with SSO.
As for the armor, I haven't done the calculations, but with the full D3 set, your defense will be 476 if you are specced 5/5 in anticipation. Is there a combination of rings/trinkets/neck/belt/boots that when combined with the righteous set will put your stats in the range to MT Kara? I'm sure it can be done with lots of warrior badge gear, but that goes right back to using items designed for other classes to bypass the role that paladins were intended for.
I'm not saying that Blizzard made it impossible, but it's harder to gear a paladin to MT raids than it is a warrior. It is, however, easier to do this than it is to find a raid spot if you're ret. What does that leave? "STFU and heal." No surprise then that the man in charge of class balance at Blizzard has indicated that the role for paladins in endgame (as he sees it) is healing or off-tanking.
Post by
Sakkura
There are tons of 1-handed weapons that are designed for use by warrior tanks
Are you sure there are that many? Let's take a look at all the non-PvP 1-handed blue TBC weapons with stamina (pretty much required for a weapon to be used by any tank, paladin or warrior):
http://www.wowhead.com/?items=2&filter=qu=3;ty=0:4:7:13;minle=50;cr=22:110:93;crs=1:1:2;crv=0:0:0
There's just over 50 of them (level requirement added so the new stuff from dustwallow marsh isn't included). Here are the ones I would say were designed (or redesigned, when expertise was introduced) for warrior tanks:
Crystalblade of the Draenei
Crystalline Kopesh
Grom'tor's Charge
Inuuro's Blade
Shaarde the Lesser
Terokk's Nightmace
Truncheon of Five Hells
Warp-Storm Warblade
Here are the ones I would say were designed for paladin tanks:
Continuum Blade
Crystalforged Sword
Mana Wrath
Seeker's Gavel
Spellfire Longsword
Maybe these too:
Diamond-Core Sledgemace
Greatsword of Horrid Dreams
Sky Breaker
There's a decent selection for both. You might not love the stats on all of the palatank weapons, but warriors don't like the stats on all the warrior tank weapons either. I really don't see the problem here. It may be true that all paladins tend to go for just one weapon, but that's just the natural tendency people have of identifying the best available option at each level of content and go for it. The same applies to warriors.
Post by
Philmckraken
Here are the ones I would say were designed for paladin tanks:
Continuum Blade
Crystalforged Sword
Mana Wrath
Seeker's Gavel
Spellfire Longsword
Look at your list of warrior weapons again, and you will see that every single one has defense on it, and most have defense/hit/expertise. In other words,
designed for warrior tanks.
Does any other class/spec need a weapon that combines those three stats?
Now, look at the list of weapons for paladin tanks. Only the crystalforged sword has stats the only benefit one class/spec. The rest are all-purpose weapons designed for any character who can cast spells that can equip that weapon type. As I stated before, a paladin tank uses one of those weapons because it has stam and spell damage, because spell hit is not something we need to stack. Are there any weapons that combine melee hit rating (which we need to land our seal procs) and spell damage? Nope. So, there is only one weapon on that list that would
useful to a prot paladin, and only a prot paladin.
The rest are usable by a paladin tank, but not designed with one in mind.
Post by
Sakkura
Look at your list of warrior weapons again, and you will see that every single one has defense on it, and most have defense/hit/expertise. In other words,
designed for warrior tanks.
Does any other class/spec need a weapon that combines those three stats?
Actually, two of them don't have any defense on them. They're still great for warrior tanks, because you don't necessarily need avoidance on your weapon. I'm personally using
Blazefury
, and I wouldn't replace it with any of those blue weapons despite the lack of defense. It's a much better weapon than any of them.
In any case, many of the warrior weapons are still useful to other classes/specs too. Especially the two with expertise, which is a great stat for DPS as well as for warrior tanks.
I could point at the paladins having access to three weapons with 30 stamina and warriors only having access to one and whine.
Post by
Philmckraken
Actually, two of them don't have any defense on them. They're still great for warrior tanks, because you don't necessarily need avoidance on your weapon. I'm personally using
Blazefury
, and I wouldn't replace it with any of those blue weapons despite the lack of defense. It's a much better weapon than any of them.
In any case, many of the warrior weapons are still useful to other classes/specs too. Especially the two with expertise, which is a great stat for DPS as well as for warrior tanks.
I could point at the paladins having access to three weapons with 30 stamina and warriors only having access to one and whine.
The two that don't have +defense fall into the same category as the generic caster weapons; useful, not optimal. If they're useful to other specs/classes due to expertise or hit rating, then they weren't designed with tanking in mind.
Whether you use a weapon with +defense or not is irrelevant, as you may not need defense rating on your weapon due to other gear. At the progression range where a paladin would use the CF sword, every bit of avoidance is precious, and that sword is the only one that has avoidance and spell damage in the main hand slot.
Paladins get access to weapons with +30 stamina (if the mages and priests and warlocks and whoever else doesn't roll against tham). Warriors get a ranged weapon slot and more base health. Any other areas where warriors are supposedly gimped? If you pass them along to your patron saint of class balance, he'll make sure to buff warriors and nerf paladins even more.
Post by
Sakkura
Actually, two of them don't have any defense on them. They're still great for warrior tanks, because you don't necessarily need avoidance on your weapon. I'm personally using
Blazefury
, and I wouldn't replace it with any of those blue weapons despite the lack of defense. It's a much better weapon than any of them.
In any case, many of the warrior weapons are still useful to other classes/specs too. Especially the two with expertise, which is a great stat for DPS as well as for warrior tanks.
I could point at the paladins having access to three weapons with 30 stamina and warriors only having access to one and whine.
The two that don't have +defense fall into the same category as the generic caster weapons; useful, not optimal. If they're useful to other specs/classes due to expertise or hit rating, then they weren't designed with tanking in mind.
Whether you use a weapon with +defense or not is irrelevant, as you may not need defense rating on your weapon due to other gear. At the progression range where a paladin would use the CF sword, every bit of avoidance is precious, and that sword is the only one that has avoidance and spell damage in the main hand slot.
Paladins get access to weapons with +30 stamina (if the mages and priests and warlocks and whoever else doesn't roll against tham). Warriors get a ranged weapon slot and more base health. Any other areas where warriors are supposedly gimped? If you pass them along to your patron saint of class balance, he'll make sure to buff warriors and nerf paladins even more.
The two warrior tank weapons without defense have a large amount of stamina as well as some expertise. Stamina is more useful to a tank than to anyone else. Expertise is even more useful to a tank than to a DPSer. Therefore, those two weapons were clearly designed for a warrior tank even if DPSers could definitely use them too.
If avoidance is so precious, you could go for (shock!) a weapon with avoidance but no spelldamage. The option is there. It just so happens the avoidance isn't that precious after all.
I said I *could* whine about the higher stamina on the paladin weapons. I didn't say that I actually was going to whine about it. In my opinion, warrior and paladin tanks are pretty well balanced compared to each other, both in gear and abilities. The only thing I would love to see changed is an increase in warrior viability for 5-man / heroic tanking. It sucks to be an excellent tank for raids but at best a mediocre one for heroics.
Post by
Philmckraken
The two warrior tank weapons without defense have a large amount of stamina as well as some expertise. Stamina is more useful to a tank than to anyone else. Expertise is even more useful to a tank than to a DPSer. Therefore, those two weapons were clearly designed for a warrior tank even if DPSers could definitely use them too.
This is true; if a DPSer has trouble with stamina or getting parried/dodged, they're definitely doing it wrong.
If avoidance is so precious, you could go for (shock!) a weapon with avoidance but no spelldamage. The option is there. It just so happens the avoidance isn't that precious after all.
You could, but then you'd either a) make up for the spell damage with the rest of your gear, which means abandoning all hope of uncrittability and uncrushability, or b) forget about spell damage and threat, at which point you're not much use as a tank. Avoidance in the main hand slot isn't required, but it does help.
I said I *could* whine about the higher stamina on the paladin weapons. I didn't say that I actually was going to whine about it. In my opinion, warrior and paladin tanks are pretty well balanced compared to each other, both in gear and abilities. The only thing I would love to see changed is an increase in warrior viability for 5-man / heroic tanking. It sucks to be an excellent tank for raids but at best a mediocre one for heroics.
That's a matter of perception. Paladins reduce the need for CC in 5-mans and heroics, but they do not eliminate it by any means. If you don't believe me, ask a paladin who has tanked MgT (when not massively over-geared).
Post by
xaratherus
If you don't believe me, ask a paladin who has tanked MgT (when not massively over-geared).
The conversation will go something like this.
: So, you ever AoE tanked SLabs?
: Pfft, cake. Murmur is my b****.
: How about Sethekk Halls or Shattered Halls?
: I did both in one night; we had barbecued arakkoa at the end of the Shattered Halls run, cooked over the corpses of orcs in The Gauntlet.
: How about Magister's Terrace?
: ...
: Pat? You still with me?
: <with a haunted look in his eye, mutters>
Go your happy place, tankadin... happy place...
Post by
Sakkura
That's a matter of perception. Paladins reduce the need for CC in 5-mans and heroics, but they do not eliminate it by any means. If you don't believe me, ask a paladin who has tanked MgT (when not massively over-geared).
Well, ask a warrior, right after tanking shattered halls, whether he would like consecration etc.
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65116
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99345
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Post by
Sakkura
Here's a good example: there is no armor set available that is designed for paladins to MT Kara (that you can get in regular 70 instances and heroics). Paladins wanting to MT Kara wear armor with no +int or spell damage. The game has exactly one weapon (
Crystalforged Sword
) that is stat-balanced for paladin tanks in mind.
What about the druid T4, T5, T6 tanking sets, badge gear, upgrades?
Even though we have a lower defense cap, doesn't mean our Tiered armor shouldn't support tanking. >_< Don't talk to me about poor itemization buddy! :D
Feral is a DPS/tanking spec. You should expect your tier gear to be DPS/tank gear.
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42092
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