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'Warlords of Draenor' and 'Rise of The Horde' novel
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Post by
Armung
Believing in a lie doesn't mean believing in the truth whose lie is a bland cover, this is why is called lie or deceit.
Alright I have to bring this up: In the original lore, before BC came out, All of the Eredar were evil from the get go. They, along with the Dreadlords, were the main reason that Sargeras fell from Order and embraced Chaos. So, from Warcraft 1 right up to the end of Vanilla WoW, Archimonde and Kil'jaeden were evil from the start.
With the addition of the Draenei, we finally got to see how Sargeras corrupts a world. We got to see him make the offer that KJ and Archi could not refuse, as it played to both of their weaknesses. We saw the world fall...and I loved it. So for the last few years, seeing mostly 'good' Draenei with a few smattering's of evil hasn't been the best...Until Draenor: Now we can watch how it may have happened for those who survived the Orc purge originally and how they ended up as followers of Darkness.
Hell, we saw it off and on with the Twilight Hammer cultists, who have followers from all of the races:All races have their scum who when given a chance, will take whatever is offered with grasping hands.
The Draenei are no more pure then any other race, so seeing some of them fall to the Shadow Council is interesting.
You simply don't like or don't seem to comply with a simple idea: Draenei are a high intelligent and mostly"pure" people than any other race... you may say a inherently good, wise, proud, curious, long lived people with relatively few examples of evil and insanity since they are mammals, got families, opinions, feelings, flaws and imperfections as any other race, exactly like the Naaru who are imperfect either. No race is absolutely perfect and no race has not "scum" (a bad word), Naaru included which turn on void gods on verge of death and Sargeras himself fell into darkness.
Same goes for Eredar. If eredar were such a corruptible race as a whole Sargeras wouldn't even bothered himself to put up his facade. Nowhere in the novel is written that eredar willingly chose to be turned into demons aka "renounce to oneself to be something utterly different and wrong, Man'ari."
Is written that they were convinced by their leaders (Archimonde and Kjl'Jaeden and some others who clearly knew the truth and sold out their kin, officially swearing loyalty to Sargeras also in place of all of the people) and Velen, initially enthralled within the glory of the same vision which was a good thing (a vision on advancing their civilization in a good way, there's bad and good ambitions in the life), was desperate to find a way to show the truth, but he could not. The process begun (how is not stated in the novel, but is different from events on draenor) and only now Man'ari Eredar become an evil kin of demons, bent to Sargeras's will, a distorted reflection of their former selves.
Is not the same saying they were "a evil corrupted ambitious race" from the start like in the original depiction (original "lore" provided for a devilish race right before encountering Sargeras). Socrethar in both timelines was once a champion, thus fallen into madness for a precise reason and turned demon (until now is not stated if by Sargeras's hand).
Concerning Twilight Hammer, i don't even bother to consider draenei as a part of it since for such a race is stupid and saying "every race must be part of it" got no sense. If blizzard got the indisputable right to retcon everything they want on a whim, i don't know why i've to observe strictly what they say knowing it may be changed immediately after and is clearly stupid in this case.
Putting aside eredar's naivety (in such a obvious lie only a fool would had fallen in good faith, near godhood in exchange of absolute loyalty toward the first newcomer), Velen's uselessness as a leader and K'ure (a disgrace)... almost 25.000 years of escape, fighting demons, countless worlds annihilated by a enemy which never surrender the hunt, i'd say are enough to understand Legion true motives and nature for even the most stupid draenei.
Instead in few years of relative peace on draenor (few from the perspective of a long lived kind), long millennia of light's teachings and ulterior enhancements whose gifts are motive of pride and unity for this new race (true or not they don't recognize man'ari as their kin anymore as a cultural trait since they are monsters and accepted Naaru's guidance building a new culture around them and the light?) in wod, some draenei fall again in a even worst mistake since they still don't seem to understand "legion is an evil beyond any others we encountered because Sargeras want to destroy everything".
Premising draenei are not a "pure" whole (better to say many of them are "pure" individuals as Velen, Yrel, Iridi, Tuulani, Ishanah, Samaara and almost all of the inhabitants) and, as you said, a small percentage of them in wod are "monomaniacal mindless monsters" (you have all the rights to like it, i don't like moronic psychos driven only by lust and stupidity, i do prefer evil ones with at least a shred of motives and feelings.
Letterature is plenty of examples and blizzard could have done a far better work as is shown for Ner'zul, Gul'dan, Garrosh, Arthas et cetera whose in-game space is much more developed), i say again their existence in game is much more justified by gameplay logic rather than "lore" logic for many reasons whose a consistent part is pretty weak and contradictory of their own previous "lore" and of the race concept itself. Blizzard loosely write anything about them, seems like an "last-minute" premature insertion made out of rush and made of discording ideas on how to proceed with: warlocks in direct service of shadow council (this point, you are right, is good), cultists (a mistake), auchenai traitors (even more senseless). In short these sargerei are mishanded, in many ways.
I continue to see almost nothing of what you talk about in wod, Sargeras included ^^
Post by
Adamsm
Then we'll have to agree to disagree; I like the way they are handled, you do not. Oh well. Good discussion anyways.
Post by
matheus314
One thing that many people overlook about the Eredar (the race which the Draenei came from) is that they're as good (or evil) as any other race and the majority of them had been tricked to becoming demons by the most powerful and deceitful being from all the universe: Sargeras. The minority that didn't got tricked by Sargeras and flew off their original planet Argus were the followers of Velen, a very wise and good person, therefore, his followers intentions were always to be as good and wise as their leader. Then, thousands of years passed, plenty of new generations of these now self-called "Draenei" (the exiled) were born and we reached current days.
These new generations are from the same race that the original Eredar are, simply changing the name of a race doesn't change the race itself (actually, the ones that suffered changes were the demonized Eredar). So, as normally as it can be, some evil Draenei may have born, other may have ignored, forgot or simply rejected their past, for many reasons, ranging from plain ignorance, to complete power-hungry intentions, to being just bored with the current state of their leadership, or even because of the opression from the orcs (alternate timeline or not).
These "new corrupted Draenei" may be a minority because the teaching of Velen, but it shows exactly why they're never free of being evil, despite Velen's leadership. The Draenei that joined the Alliance on BC are yet another minority, they're the ones closer to Velen, the ones that survived the massacre of Shattrath and Karabor. And that's why we're lead to believe all Draenei are inherently good.
I hope I made myself understandable, these are very personal feelings about them from playing the game and reading the books.
Post by
Armung
Then we'll have to agree to disagree; I like the way they are handled, you do not. Oh well. Good discussion anyways.
Cut previous post.
If you adfirm they are no more "pure" (means inherently good for the most part and not devoid of human defects, none is) than any other race, you are mistaken and we'll ever disagree. In this meaning draenei are now as they were before, so in tbc a "few evil" for them was good (there's plenty of evil for them in tbc, i'd not say "few"). Is exactly for this that seeing some of them fall from grace or simply being evil is so interesting. Not an excuse for poorly written lore.
Btw, seeing scum with grasping hands from nowhere is even older than "good draenei" and hardly is interesting without a good plot.
Post by
Armung
One thing that many people overlook about the Eredar (the race which the Draenei came from) is that they're as good (or evil) as any other race and the majority of them had been tricked to becoming demons by the most powerful and deceitful being from all the universe: Sargeras. The minority that didn't got tricked by Sargeras and flew off their original planet Argus were the followers of Velen, a very wise and good person, therefore, his followers intentions were always to be as good and wise as their leader. Then, thousands of years passed, plenty of new generations of these now self-called "Draenei" (the exiled) were born and we reached current days.
These new generations are from the same race that the original Eredar are, simply changing the name of a race doesn't change the race itself (actually, the ones that suffered changes were the demonized Eredar). So, as normally as it can be, some evil Draenei may have born, other may have ignored, forgot or simply rejected their past, for many reasons, ranging from plain ignorance, to complete power-hungry intentions, to being just bored with the current state of their leadership, or even because of the opression from the orcs (alternate timeline or not).
These "new corrupted Draenei" may be a minority because the teaching of Velen, but it shows exactly why they're never free of being evil, despite Velen's leadership. The Draenei that joined the Alliance on BC are yet another minority, they're the ones closer to Velen, the ones that survived the massacre of Shattrath and Karabor. And that's why we're lead to believe all Draenei are inherently good.
I hope I made myself understandable, these are very personal feelings about them from playing the game and reading the books.
Yes and not. You too are overlooking the fact draenei are a now enlightened long lived race (with few children, low fertility) less prone to evil and to "forget the past" as humans do, so plain ignorance about the legion is pretty hard. And they are for the most part good people with the desire to live in peace. In "rise of the horde" appear to be that way, and WOD (sargerei included) confirm exactly this, other sources are just meant to describe defects, flaws and mistakes many draenei made and how they learn from those mistakes and repent (the broken, zealotry, diffidence, arrogance, even cruelty... as well many show kindness, selflessness, a caring soul, forgiveness). In a way, despite being far more evoluted than many other races, draenei remain "humans" or a really emotional people who give high value to relations, family, friendship, kind, the Light. A sane one won't forget any, isn't a matter of "Prophet's teachings" than of their very soul (frequent use of "brother" and "sister" is not for naught).
This little faction of corrupted ones, even if it would have been nice to give it some shade of grey, is moronic, evil and rotten like Targath & co. Same race, same scum. Being bored with Velen's leadership isn't an excuse for workshipping a demon or butchering someone else, so is not for the horde since Alliance and draenei coalition has almost destroyed Iron Horde in Shadowmoon, kicked them out of Shattrath... and, in first place, fear is hardly enough to justify Sargerei's crimes.
So it was with draenei. Our skin was reddish brown then; theirs was blue. We had feet, they had hooves and a tail. We lived mostly in the open, they lived in enclosed spaces. We had a fairly short life span; no one knew how long lived they were.Nevermind that they had shown us nothing but courtesy and openness. That they had traded with us, taught us, shared whatever they were asked to share. That had no bearing now. We had heard from the ancestors, and we saw with our own eyes how different they were.
My prayer, every day, is for wisdom to guide my people. And in that prayer is couched a plea, never to be blinded by such trivial differences.
- Thrall
Durotan stuck out his chin. "One day, we will be strong and our full size. Then, it will be the ogres who fear us." Restalaan turned a mild face to him, and to Durotan's surprise, he nodded. "
I completely agree," he said. "Orcs are powerful hunters." Orgrim narrowed his eyes, looking for the taunt, but there was none.
Talgath had served him well. He had observed the pathetic, so called "cities" the once mighty Velen and his little handful of eredar had created. He had observed how they lived, hunting like the creatures who called themselves "orcs", putting grain in the ground with their own hands. He had watched them trade with the hulking, barely verbal creatures, treating them with a courtesy that was positively laughable.
At this point their way of life was utterly different and still they are undemonized Eredar. Hunting, trade, agriculture, mining, arts, knowledge and music. Not so isolationist as they are believed to be. Harmless civilians and scholars for the most part, judging how draenei had been massacred. In Azeroth many learned shamanism as a facet of the Light.
Post by
oneforthemoney
I think it's a good indication of how little support the Sargeri received that their draenei numbers alone are a small presence on Socrethar's rise, and in the fighting in Shattrath are a inority compared to orcs and ogres running around.
If I understand your point, it is that it was poor writing to have a faction of the draenei turn evil when they are supposed to be more 'pure'. I have to disagree since they do have a fairly good argument. During the original war in Draenor it was easy for the draenei to remain united because they were fighting the orcs, but orcs which had been corrupted by the Legion, so really it was still fighting the Legion.
In WoD that stance has shifted. The draenei are at war now for their very existence against the Iron Horde, not the Legion. It is this which has caused a shift for a small number of draenei, because now, they are being menaced by something outside their ancestral foes, so for some (particularly the newer generation), the power the Legion has would prove tempting, as they could use it to protect themselves.
Post by
Armung
I think it's a good indication of how little support the Sargeri received that their draenei numbers alone are a small presence on Socrethar's rise, and in the fighting in Shattrath are a inority compared to orcs and ogres running around.
If I understand your point, it is that it was poor writing to have a faction of the draenei turn evil when they are supposed to be more 'pure'. I have to disagree since they do have a fairly good argument. During the original war in Draenor it was easy for the draenei to remain united because they were fighting the orcs, but orcs which had been corrupted by the Legion, so really it was still fighting the Legion.
In WoD that stance has shifted. The draenei are at war now for their very existence against the Iron Horde, not the Legion. It is this which has caused a shift for a small number of draenei, because now, they are being menaced by something outside their ancestral foes, so for some (particularly the newer generation), the power the Legion has would prove tempting, as they could use it to protect themselves.
That is poor writing because is poor writing. Being "pure" or "good" isn't the real matter, it is only in regard to "sargerei's number" which apparently was going up among influenceable younglins (but still a pretty small minority) after Velen's death (their fatherly spiritual leader is gone, forever... shocking for many of them) and thanks to Socrethar's charisma and demonic persuasive power which is difficult to resist. Their ancestral foe is something far more dangerous than any "iron horde" (another reason for avoid any contact with it, an orc is just a slayer, siding with legion is eternal damnation or something like that), thus the point is that these Sargerei gladly accept legion's power for their own ends; i may be wrong but "defending against IH" or " revenge for the fallen" isn't not among Sargerei's motives, at least for now. Apparently they just want power, dominion and are eager to betray and to wipe out their former light following brothers and sisters (in short, a genocide) as a gift for Sargeras, who is revered like a God.
At this point only three possibilities.
1) Sargerei are mad, evil and rotten to the core from the start like Targath, Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden .
2) Sargerei are just fools and weak willed ones completely desperate thanks to the war (and forgetful of the fact draenei, including still living relatives, had escaped the legion for 25 millennia, Legion is utterly bad) and being unable to cope with death of family, friends and loved ones they believe siding with legion would reunite eredar's race (after Velen's death only two ancient leaders remain) and restore their former glory, and they are lured with a false promise of immortality, still they accept to murder in cold blood many innocents.
3) 1 & 2 together. In both cases none of them show any shred of regret, doubt, repetance or sorrow for what the faction are doing; draenei genocide. And almost all of the new "recruits" in shadowmoon are even unable to hold a weapon or kill a podling, thus they are assigned to fish or do "flower gardening" while others are skilled warlocks. None of them seems a man'ari except Socrethar. Too much is unexplored.
Point 1 is fully explored, Sargerei are just monsters to kill. Points 2 & 3 are not, just some catchphrase pronounced by some mob to make them appear like "misguided crazed ones" to be pitied in some degree since they are lied to or "we are just doing what is necessary".
Sargerei as a faction don't seem to care about IH or even hating orcs and ogres (Ogres got plenty of draenei slaves, in terms of racial pride some draenei could feel burning hatred towards both orcs and ogres), but siding with them for the sake of having a true military force. IH is good until draenei are distracted from Sargerei's activity. I'd say Sargerei are... empty. Just a secondary enemy to counterbalance IH.
Not at all, being menaced by the orcs isn't a "fair reason" to sold out anyone of their kin to the Legion (a far greater and terrible foe) which tormented them all for 25 millennia even if some may have wanted to "protect himself".
Post by
Rankkor
Good lord mate, Learn to format please :S
People don't like to read giant blocks of text. Use dots, commas, divide your post in reasonably-sized paragraphs.
Post by
H3Knuckles
And regarding your "Try to fix all the bad things that bad individuals of the faction have done in the past". Marshal Twinbraid butchered a tribe of peaceful tauren unprovoked even when the taurens pleaded for peace. He was promoted to General.
I'm just nitpicking Blizzard here, but you may like it for headcanon Rank; Marshal (as a military rank, as opposed to law enforcement usage) is pretty much always a superior rank to General; so Twinbraid was "promoted" to a lower office.
Post by
Rankkor
=/ actually I got it backwards. He was a
general
before, and was promoted to
High Marshal
on Krasarang.
The point of the phrase still stands though, he did a war crime, and was promoted. At least horde-side, most of our guys who do war crimes pay the piper one way or another. Either by demotion (Like Sky-reaver Krom) or execution (Such as Overlord Krom'gar). Some exceptions exist (Like Sylvanas), but they are just that, exceptions, most others end up facing consequences for their actions (Like Varimathras, Krom'gar, Krom, Krenna, Garrosh, Greebo, and so many others).
Meanwhile, almost all the war criminals on the alliance, are not only NEVER punished for their actions, but most of the time, they actually get promoted (Such as Twinbraid, or Jaina)
Post by
matheus314
Heheh... I like how you make it sound like all Alliance army are war criminals and the Horde is just a few, that gets punished instantly for it. =)
Post by
Rankkor
Heheh... I like how you make it sound like all Alliance army are war criminals and the Horde is just a few, that gets punished instantly for it. =)
I never said that.
I said that there ARE war criminals in the alliance, and they NEVER get punished for their actions. Ever. Notice that I never said "all" or "most" of the alliance military is made of war criminals.
There are war criminals on the horde too, but almost every single one of them (save very few exceptions) are punished for their actions. By the horde itself, not the alliance.
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