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Is it really a MUST to go for standard builds? Can't I be different to enjoy the game?
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Post by
143600
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Post by
Monjaru
http://youtube.com/watch?v=yAmXZPuS7L0&feature=related
I believe this is what you're thinking of. Good stuff. Just goes to show how strong a group of Priests can be.
Post by
120885
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Post by
151380
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Post by
Gondil
On the other hand, when it comes to raiding progression when you have 9 or 24 other people who may not down that particular boss because you've gimped your primary class skill for the sake of being different... well, that's another story. If you're a BM hunter in my raid and you're pulling half the DPS you should be you'll be politely asked to respec before the next raid. If you don't, you won't be coming.
And for the record, my armory:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Medivh&n=Stormchaser
OMG, you are varying from the cookie-cutter BM spec by putting 1 point in Spirit Bond. This makes you 100% wrong and useless in a raid. You are the reason they fail.
Yes, this was sarcasm. Had to add that disclaimer to avoid the inevitable.
My current spec is 48/13/0. I do not have Mortal Shots. Am I therefore a moron? No. I am using a Valano's Longbow, and Cheeky's spreadsheet shows me that that speccing Mortal Shots would currently raise my DPS by about 20, from 700 to 720 (and I calculate my DPS using lowest common denominator settings...without cooldowns factored in, using AoV, etc.). That's a <5% increase. I PvP a lot. Mortal Shots is a crit enhancer...ergo, even a lower DPS increase in PvP where resilience rules. I still do a lot of dailies and prefer that my pet hold up better, so, I have Thick Hide and Catlike Reflexes. Later, when I get a better bow and I am not soloing much anymore, it will make more sense, and I will drop them and get Mortal Shots. So, I have chosen a spec that is the most effective for me across PvE, PvP, 5-mans, and raiding in the ratios that I play them. Unless you are a hunter that hearths back to Orgrimmar to respec your pet for the right resistances between each boss fight, then you have no real room to complain about "efficiency" ;). Nobody is 100% efficient 100% of the time.
Cookie cutter builds are great. If you understand them, and know how to choose when to deviate and why. If you just follow them blindly and call everyone else morons for doing anything at all different, then you just show your ignorance. You show yourself to be the kind of player that *never could have come up with the cookie cutter build on your own in the first place*, because you are not the kind of player who evaluates things for themselves.
One might guess I am useless in a raid. Nope, I helped my guild take down Leo in SSC for the first time Sunday night. I was the only hunter in the raid, btw. We tried many times, and everyone's performance improved a little bit each time. I figured out when the best times to blow cooldowns were, where to park my pet and when to pull him out so he could survive, etc.
It's funny to read "if your spec is off, you are probably the reason your raid wiped at 1%". It's just as easy to turn around and say "you were so busy trying to top the DPS meters, you let loose too early and got aggro, decreasing DPS for the raid as a whole and risking a wipe", or "you did great DPS, but a freeze trap on that 1 add that killed 2 priests would have saved the raid...too bad you were 100% engrossed in your shot rotation and having to watch the threat meter like a hawk because you were on the bleeding edge of DPS", etc. I find it far more common for a player to cause problems for a raid by trying to top the charts than by having a slightly off spec for DPS.
Meters and charts are the bane of WoW, and they cause *bad players* to think they are good. I have a 70 holy priest, and one day in a 5-man that had 2 healers, the other priest went off on me because I "was not healing enough" and was way "behind" on the healing meter. This priest was using their mana intensive fast heal the moment anyone took a single point of damage, and was oom and drinking half the time as a result. I could not get a heal in edgewise. That's just bad play, pure and simple, fostered by relying on a DPS/healing meter as the sole criteria of "good" performance.
Post by
146411
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Post by
Excerion
You say that it could make a difference between a 1% wipe and a kill, but will it really? How often will it come to that situation, and do you have solid evidence to back up a claim like that? Probably not.
-Monjaru-
Seen the SK gaming kill on M'uru? 2 members left when the boss died with around 20-30% health each. I'm pretty sure in a 6-7 min fight those talents would make that up as the raid went from full to almost complete wipe in all of about 15 secs.
Post by
120885
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Post by
Monjaru
Have a link for that? I'd be very interested to see it.
Btw, even if you do show me a vid of it, it's not enough to disprove my point. For the sole reason that: it's a single occurrence. Since you *obviously* know of so many different times when it came down to a wipe, or close to it, because of slight variations to raid member's builds, you have reason to believe it's important to go only with the cookie cutters. But unless you can toss out a fair number of videos (with indisputable proof that the wipe was caused by slightly variated builds of a few members),
your
experience means absolutely nothing to
me
.
Sorry, but that's just how it is.
Post by
131709
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Post by
120885
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Post by
120885
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Post by
56076
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Post by
Excerion
The thing is, if your raid is made up of, what you would consider "capable", members, then why would you be so concerned about it
possibly
coming to such a dire situation? And if it does, it's not the DPS's fault for not DPSing the boss down quickly ("efficiently") enough, it's either the tank(s)'s for losing aggro, or the healer's for not keeping the tank(s) up. So honestly, anyone trying to beat this guy up for not sticking 100% to the cookie cutter build is being completely moronic. Simple as that.
-Monjaru-
Gruul. That fight it a DPS race and if you don't have enough dps, he'll grow too much and the tank will die cause he gets hit too hard.
Btw, even if you do show me a vid of it, it's not enough to disprove my point. For the sole reason that: it's a single occurrence. Since you *obviously* know of so many different times when it came down to a wipe, or close to it, because of slight variations to raid member's builds, you have reason to believe it's important to go only with the cookie cutters. But unless you can toss out a fair number of videos (with indisputable proof that the wipe was caused by slightly variated builds of a few members),
your
experience means absolutely nothing to
me
.
Sorry, but that's just how it is.
I don't really care if it's a single occurrence or it happens 20,000 times, the point of the matter is that if he wasn't specced the cookie cutter, they would have died. Simple as that. And I don't really care if my "experiences' mean nothing to you, I gave you proof and you just dismiss it cause you don't agree. Almost every player I know has had a 1% wipe and have noticed pvp builds and the like being used by dps.
Atm all you're saying is "He can play how he wants" and I've got no problem with letting him, he just ain't taking a spot in my raid without be the most efficient he can and he shouldn't disadvantage 24 other players who are doing their best to get the "job" done because that isn't fair to them.
Sure it's his $15 but it's also their $15 and they should enjoy, not be let down by someone who isn't doing their best in an environment where it's expected.
Post by
Monjaru
Gruul. That fight it a DPS race and if you don't have enough dps, he'll grow too much and the tank will die cause he gets hit too hard. Okay, I can deal with that. In a situation like Gruul, one person
could
make all the difference.
I don't really care if it's a single occurrence or it happens 20,000 times, the point of the matter is that if he wasn't specced the cookie cutter, they would have died. Simple as that. And I don't really care if my "experiences' mean nothing to you,
I gave you proof and you just dismiss it cause you don't agree.
Almost every player I know has had a 1% wipe and have noticed pvp builds and the like being used by dps.Here I'm going to have to disagree. Proof, you say. Proof in who's eyes? I am not simply going to accept something as a fact, or a proven statement, because you say it is. That's just the way I am. That would be like me saying, "You should NEVER bring a Paladin into a fight against Gruul because you'll lose every time." and expect you to just believe it because I said so. (**Note: This is just an example and is in no way a fact or even something I believe to be true**)
You wouldn't just believe me, would you? Unless I was able to show you a number of valid instances where this statement was true, you would probably do the same thing I am doing now, am I correct? You'd stick by
your
beliefs, according to
your
experience (however great or small that experience is) until I was able to truly
prove
that you were wrong and I was right.
Please realize, I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right. Far from it. In fact, I'm sure you
are
right. You've got more experience in this field than I do by a longshot. But like I said, I can't just accept something as a fact because you said so. =]
Atm all you're saying is "He can play how he wants" and I've got no problem with letting him, he just ain't taking a spot in my raid without be the most efficient he can and he shouldn't disadvantage 24 other players who are doing their best to get the "job" done because that isn't fair to them.
Sure it's his $15 but it's also their $15 and they should enjoy, not be let down by someone who isn't doing their best in an environment where it's expected. Absolutely true. I'm not going to argue that. You have every right to tell someone they can't come because they could hinder the performance of the raid. However, a person should not be forced to stick to the cookie cutter build in order to participate in end-game raiding. If that were so, Blizzard would have required you to put talent points into certain abilities to be allowed to enter into certain instances, and required to put them into another spot to enter a battleground or arena.
Very nice video by the way. That Hungry posted. I think you were the one who mentioned it though? Anyway, does anyone know who it was on that team that was not using the cookie cutter, if anyone? Just want to make sure it's an instance that's at all valid to this argument. (Yes, I'm being skeptical again. Can't help it. =3) Just let me know if you know. If not, then oh well. Mr. Skeptic shall live on. =D
Post by
120885
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Post by
153094
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Post by
Monjaru
I'm a little confused by the "DPS is fact." thing. =/
Either I'm being really slow right now or that's meant to be worded slightly differently.
Anyways..all that info on members of SK is nice Hungry, but I honestly don't see what it has to do with proving the validity, to this thread, of the aforementioned video. (assuming that was your intention of posting the above information about SK Gaming members)
I am already aware that speccing just right (using a "cookie cutter" build) can and will improve, by a fairly significant margin, a player's DPS. I am also aware that a raid leader will (should) always take a more efficiently specced DPSer into a raid where maximum DPS count will be highly important to the success of the raid. But, I was never arguing
against
that. What I
am
arguing against, is the alleged "fact" that a DPS character
must
be specced for optimum DPS output in order to participate in end-game raiding. Which I think is rather ridiculous.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
....you know what, now that I'm looking back through the thread (and at the OPs original post), raiding was never even put into the equation here. The OP merely asked whether he/she must use the "cookie cutter" build in order to be successful in the game. Someone asked whether he/she was raiding or not, but they never responded. I think we're kinda rambling on to a new topic entirely here. May be better to just drop it and pick up in a new thread (whenever "cookie cutter" builds and end-game raiding come up in one).
Post by
120885
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Post by
Monjaru
Woah, woah, woah. Hold on there. When did I say ANYTHING even remotely close to what you're saying I did? Seriously, I must've missed something in my own post because I don't recall ever saying I'd take a certain ability over another because I like it better. As a matter of fact, I never included myself in the things I was saying. Don't put words into my mouth.
But, I was never arguing
against
that. What I
am
arguing against, is the alleged "fact" that a DPS character
must
be
specced for optimum DPS output
in order to participate in end-game raiding. Which I think is rather ridiculous. I don't know if you realized, but I said myself that I realize these builds help to optimize DPS output, you don't need to restate things I already said as if it's something I really need to know.
I also
never
said anything about someone should be accepted into a raid because they're moderately good at both PvE and PvP. Where did you pull
that
out from? Again, don't put words into my mouth.
DPS, really, is all raiding guilds look for from Hunters in raids, even if you are a Survival Hunter, it's no excuse to be at the bottom of the DMG Meters with the tanks and healers. I also already noted this in previous posts.
I am aware
that DPS is what Hunters do.
I am aware
that "cookie cutter" builds optimize the DPS a DPSer can dish out.
And I realize
that most, if not all, raid leaders will be looking for those who are specced accordingly. As I have said multiple times already, that is NOT what I am arguing against. I acknowledge all that as facts.
What I am arguing is that: A DPS does not
have
to be a "cookie cutter" built player in order to participate.
That would be the equivalent of saying a Fury Warrior is not allowed to come because they can't deal as much DPS, without taking aggro, as a Rogue. It would be like saying only Rogues and Mages can come because bringing other classes, who can't dish out as much DPS, would be gimping the overall DPS and could cost success of the raid. Which you would agree (I'd hope) is ridiculous.
And you still have yet to tell me how it is that an "improperly" specced player was the cause of the near wipe incident in that video you showed me on the previous page. Which can only leave me to assume it was shown in a feeble attempt to prove me wrong and that it really has no reason to be shown here and would have no effect on the argument at hand.
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