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Will WoD be the last expansion?
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Post by
Rankkor
What we would really like, Rank, is for the Horde to have to react to us.
Already granted. How else would you classify the Purge of Dalaran?
Our actions and little development have either been reactionary to the Horde or participatory with the Horde.
Its the same deal for us, every major enemy defeated, its always in collaboration with the alliance, a lot of people seem to focus solely and exclusively on Thrall being there for Deathwing's fall, ignoring that the other half of the fight took place in an alliance gunship.
You have to understand that the reason the alliance still exists is BECAUSE of the horde. If there was no horde, there would be no alliance. This was already proven very solidly at the end of the second war, when the alliance not only nearly dissolved, it came this close to infighting amongst themselves.
So its impossible to have a narrative on a story with two factions, without one side reacting to the other. And while you are mentioning that the alliance always is the one reacting to the horde, you often either forget, or overlook that the horde often has to reel and react to the alliance. Purge of Dalaran, Purge of Taurajo, invasion of Silverpine, the list goes on. Its an unfortunate chain reaction that is doomed to repeat itself for as long as there are factions, and the horde has it no better than the alliance in this regard.
Were we DO have it worse, is the type of enemies we face. Because while you get to face your fated enemies, we get to face......... splintered forces of ourselves. What I wouldn't give to have an expansion where the bad guys are an evil faction that splinters off the alliance (Say.... dalaran for example) and have THEM as the main antagonists.
As bluntly as I can put it: I didn't joined the horde to kill more horde, or ex-horde, I joined the horde to kill alliance. So when do we get to kill alliance?
We are constantly playing Defense and never get a chance to play Offense (and SoO doesn't count as offense as it was participatory with the Horde).
This...... doesn't make any sense. You are storming the enemy capital. We're not talking about some little shanty-town in the middle of nowhere, we're talking about OUR CAPITAL, and you get to storm it, even getting fancy titles like Hordebreaker and Conqueror of Orgrimmar, you get to fight horde forces on a large scale, and then, let the horde rebels live out of mercy.
Its not an offense because we get to participate too? where does that make any sense?
Southern Barrens also doesn't count
On this I guess I can agree, the alliance "quest-line" was embarrassing. Horde-side there was this awesome voiced event, large scale battle to defend senjin and then take razor hill, a great emotional moment between Vol'jin Thrall and Chen, the old guard together again, etc etc, while the alliance........ hmm....... controlled a robotic cat for 10 min.
=/ Anticlimax doesn't even begin to describe that one.
as I am referring to an expansion desire not just a handful of quests in a zone you visit for an hour and never go back to; in other words, things like that are mere scraps, crumbs from the table.
This is what makes me put my hands on my head and ask myself what does it takes to please some people. You got an entire expansion where all you do is hand the horde their rears on a plate, culminating with an invasion of their main capital, effectively WINNING the war, and making it very clear to the horde rebels that they're alive because you're LETTING them live.
You have no clue how badly I wish it had been the opposite. That varian was the main bad guy, that his 7th legion were the evil mooks we slaughter by the thousands though the expansion, that YOUR gunship and not ours goes in flames 10 min after ariving in the new continent, that throughout the entire expansion is your side losing and losing, while ours keeps winning and winning, and that the expansion had culminated with an invasion of stormwind where not only we put varian down, we also make it clear to the rest of the alliance that they get to live because WE SAY SO. Ending with a nice title "Alliancebreaker" and "Conqueror of Stormwind"
But no, instead I got to see my faction thrashed, beaten, broken, defeated, oppressed by a madman that we're forced to work for despite how much we hate him, and how much he treats us worse than dirt, and then get to fight our own people rather than our old enemies.
I hope I don't sound offensive by this, but.... you don't know how good you have it. Those "crumbs" as you so delicately put it, look like gold nuggets from where I'm standing.
We want something big, something that makes the Horde rock back on its heels in reaction to something we decide to do
Meh, I'd settle with being able to set foot in even one of your cities and cause some damage for once, but that's never gonna happen, so yeah =/ We both wont get what we want.
some grand story line that does not originate with or from a Horde character
TBC and WOTLK ring a bell? Illidan = not horde. Arthas = most certainly not horde.
And for what it looks like, a large segment of WoD is draenei driven, so you DO get your wish of driving the story for once.
, something that does not require us to fight a common enemy.
Now, THIS is never gonna happen. This is a game with two factions, but the day they start making faction-exclusive content that isn't quests (such as a raid that is only available to the alliance or horde) is the day you will see the riot police required at blizzard HQ. Whenever there is a big bad villain, the horde and alliance WILL team up to kill him, her, or it. Then they go back to bickering and fighting among themselves. Saw it happen in TBC, in WOTLK, in Cata, and even in MoP, and make no mistake, it will happen again in WoD. That's just the way this game goes.
Even before Wow, as in warcraft 3 the legion was not defeated exclusively by the alliance, or exclusively by the horde, but by a collaboration of both.
We want our turn to drive the story.
You had it. WOTLK. And a large part of MoP is the alliance making the first move and coming out on top. Jaina gets the power of a demigod in the isle of thunder, horde gets the batteries of a golem. Alliance players get a scenario were their king delivers a crushing and humiliating defeat upon the horde, while horde players get a scenario where a beloved lore figure gets stabbed and we have to fight our own. Alliance players get to keep their favorite heroes and always see their badass gunship in action, horde loses their gunship 10 min after the expansion starts, and then loses fan favorite Nazgrim, and now Zaela.
Come on, maybe what you're getting isn't perfect, but take a look at our side and realize just how much worse it could be if you were in our place.
its not much consolation but there it is =/
Post by
morginar
Rankkor, you know that horde heroes, faction leaders and the like are all going to become raid/dungeon-bosses.
Just look at Deathwing, Keal'Thas, Teron Gorefiend, Blackhand, Garrosh, Grom, Nerzul/Lich King, Kilrog, Zaela, Cho-Gall... And the list goes on.
And the Alliance will be purer than white lawfull god human and co. Come to save the day and punch
Team Rocket
a Horde and save the day.
Hope a Garothias minded character or Jaina screws the alliance up good. And dirty that white thing thas is called Alliance.
Post by
PhantomScourge
Almost perfect. This isn't a coup for the Alliance. We would like some actual character development for our leaders, and things to do that don't actually involve Orcs. How about just one freakin time, the Horde can tag along on our storyline and expansion instead of vice versa.
Edit: Oh nevermind. Who am I kidding? Metzen has made Thrall the centre and purpose of the Warcraft Universe and that is
never
going change You just watch. He'll strike the killing blow on Sargeras.
I agree, the past two expansions have been too Thrall/Horde-centric, and now we're going to get the most orc-centric expansion ever. I am disappoint... and I say this as a Horde player.
At least the bright side is that alliance players keep getting orcs to kill. Meanwhile when was the last time we horde players get to battle an evil splinter section of the alliance?
I've killed plenty of Northwatch and Scarlets in my time, and a few Dark Iron Dwarves too.
How about Wrath of the Lich King? That was for all intents and purposes an alliance story. We had a villain of alliance origins, that harmed the alliance far more than the horde, the entire campaign against him was led by an iconic former alliance figure gone neutral (Much like Thrall did in cata), and featured an alliance city as a central hub. Northrend was a pretty alliance-centric expansion. Even the Vry'kul were revealed to be ancestors to the humans, and the entire shenanigans with the titans also revealed TONS of lore for the ancestors of the dwarves and gnomes.
Edit: Oh nevermind. Who am I kidding? Metzen has made Thrall the centre and purpose of the Warcraft Universe and that is
never
going change You just watch. He'll strike the killing blow on Sargeras.
ugh, not this again :S Was Thrall the central figure in WOTLK? no. Was he the central figure in vanilla? no. Was he the central figure in TBC? no. Was he the central figure in MoP? no. Just because thrall had ONE protagonic spot in cata (which was relegated to 1 zone, 1 questchain, 1 dungeon and 1 raid) doesn't mean he's suddenly the center of the universe.
Well, Dalaran was never an Alliance city to my knowledge. The Alliance didn't exist during the Scourge invasion, but Lordaeron and the High/Blood Elves did, and they ultimately joined the Horde. So saying that the Scourge did far more damage to the Alliance than they did to the Horde is slightly inaccurate. However, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that the lore in Wrath was a bit Alliance-heavy. This means we had two pretty neutral expansions, followed by ONE alliance-centric expansion, followed by back-to-back Thrall/Horde-centric expansions. It's time for a second Alliance-centric expansion, and then we can call it even.
Who cares how many levels there are? They need to fix stats otherwise dps will be measured in millions. Hell, I already see 1mil hp unbuffed tanks.
My Blood DK has just passed 950k with no buffs except Blood presence.
As bluntly as I can put it: I didn't joined the horde to kill more horde, or ex-horde, I joined the horde to kill alliance. So when do we get to kill alliance?
Have you tried queueing for random battlegrounds or visiting the southern shore of Krasarang?
fancy titles like Hordebreaker and Conqueror of Orgrimmar, blah blah YOUR gunship and not ours goes in flames 10 min after ariving in the new continent, blah blah more whining
It's not about who's "winning" or "losing", or what we "get" to do. It's about
where the spotlight is shining
. In MoP, or at least in 5.3 and 5.4, the spotlight was on Garrosh and Orgrimmar and the Horde civil war. The Horde got a crap ton of lore development and the Alliance was just kind of...
there
.
Post by
Lordplatypus
ignoring that the other half of the fight took place in an alliance gunship.
Because it was convient that it had a big hole in the bottom for a skydiving scene, and the hordeship's balloons would have gotten in the way of the dragon that tauren dude was riding and the other dragons.
Oh and i nearly puked after killing Admiral Proudmoore, he did not deserve to die like that, zerged by a pile of orcs, a half orc, a bear, a tauren and a troll.
Lets not forget half the quests from the begining of your leveling experience include killing alliance.
What was the FREAKING STARTING ZONE quest for the orcs?
KILLING ALLIANCE.
First thing you do when you arrive in northerend from the EK?
KILL ALLIANCE
What were half the quests in TBC for the horde?
KILL ALLIANCE
Cata?
KILL ALLIANCE
We only got 0 horde deaths before the war got started.
Jaina gets the power of a demigod in the isle of thunder, horde gets the batteries of a golem.
Jaina gets some overglorified tesla coil. The sunreavers have blood of a titan powered by hate.
Already granted. How else would you classify the Purge of Dalaran?
Oh I don't know, the alliance realizing the sunreavers STABBED THEM IN THE BACK and then REACTING?
Post by
Rankkor
Already granted. How else would you classify the Purge of Dalaran?
Oh I don't know, the alliance realizing the sunreavers STABBED THEM IN THE BACK and then REACTING?
Man we've talked about this plenty of times before. The sunreavers betrayed nobody, they were in fact urging the blood elves of silvermoon to re-join the alliance. Just let it go. Just because you don't like a certain event doesn't mean it didn't happened.
Post by
Rankkor
I'm not doing this again, believe what you wish to believe, but official canon lore already established it, and official horde quests confirm it, Silvermoon elves stole the bell, not the sunreavers. If you don't wish to believe that, then its your prerogative.
Post by
Adamsm
Oh just let it drop already, this is not the thread for that.
Post by
Rankkor
You are free to stand by whatever you desire.
It doesn't really changes what really happened though.
. And just like the MANY times we've had this discussion before, you've failed to produce a single spec of evidence to back up your claims other than pure speculation.
While you are free to pursue whatever ideas you want, your own lack of concrete evidence lends poor credence to your claims, and I am disinclined to continue going in circles about this topic that you and I HAVE discussed to death multiple times and in each and every single one you've never been able to prove anything with any form of solid proof.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Solid proof?
Furthermore, the Sunreavers of Dalaran are risking their neutrality
by assisting the Horde with this operation.
How much more solid do you need it to be? It outright and blatantly states that the sunreavers are indeed aiding the horde.
On the other hand, you act like a damn creationist, looking for whatever proves you right instead of what actually exists.
How many criminals plead guilty with no incentive? How many criminals are willing to admit their crimes with no reason to believe they'll get a lighter sentence if they do?
Now just stop randomly attacking me and pretending I don't give facts when you've yet to come up with anything more solid than superheated nitrogen oxide.(##RESPBREAK##)16##DELIM##hatman555##DELIM##Let's try and keep this from escalating to insults please.
Post by
Adamsm
You haven't come up with facts though; a few members of the Sunreavers turning does not mean the entire faction needs to be wiped out.
Post by
Lordplatypus
a "Few members" being just enough to grab the bell and sabotage the defenses at theramoore.
You don't reveal your entire network instantly, if it's possible to only risk some of them to achieve an objective, why risk all of them?
Furthermore, you have it from multiple sources that the sunreavers risked their neutrality to do what they did.
There was no reason to mince words, the only people who would hear this were loyal horde dogs, at least in-universe, thus this implies that the sunreavers were in on it. Pretty obivous no?
Furthermore, when Lor'themar spews out drivel about the sunreavers being innocent, what else do you have but the following bit.
Aethas Sunreaver shifts uncomfortably.
Now if you know anything about body language, this kind of random action is a defnitely a sign that the person has done something well, untrustworthy and isn't comfortable with it. Aka he lied.
The line is right after Lor'themar says THE SUNREAVERS ARE INOSENT with about as much as a red light.
Why would they drop that if it wasn't meant for us to pick up? Law of conservation of detail is important.
Either Aethas is feeding us bullcrap the whole time, or he just plain doesn't have the reins in his hands when it comes to the sunreavers, just as thrall didn't do crap about the horde's agression pre-cata.
These red lights pop up all over the place, even some in the horde side of things, which of course, is tinted to make the horde seem right.
There is no hints of their innocence on the alliance-tinted storyline, but there are hints of guilt on the horde tinted one.
Post by
Adamsm
And since Jaina has said she wants Aethas dead, I'd shift uncomfortably with an unstable magus in front of me...remember, this is the same woman who only a few weeks/months earlier had tried to drown all of Durotar, and had allowed Vereesa and her Silver Covenant forces to start a whole sale slaughter of the Sunreaver civilians in Dalaran.
If it was me, I would have been hiding behind a mage shield, since you have no idea what the @#$% Jaina was going to do.
Post by
Lordplatypus
he only shifts after lor'themar's line, if it was about jaina, he'd have been shifting alot earlier.
Post by
Eccentrica
Are you two done derailing the thread yet?
Post by
PhantomScourge
Are you two done derailing the thread yet?
I doubt it.
Post by
Adamsm
he only shifts after lor'themar's line, if it was about jaina, he'd have been shifting alot earlier.
Whatever; you dislike the Horde so you'll see anything about it in a dark light. Let the topic drop now.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Ofcourse I see things in a dark light.
A black light to be precise.
After all, only black light lets you see blood.
And we're dealing with BLOOD elves.
Post by
Adamsm
And we're dealing with BLOOD elves.And the Blood Elves were betrayed by the humans, blah blah blah.
Post by
Levarus
As long as WoW's making profit, I can't imagine Blizzard stopping at this xpac.
Post by
Lordplatypus
And the Blood Elves were betrayed by the humans, blah blah blah.
Pretty sure it was the over way around.
Kael'thas repeatedly went around explicit orders and got what he deserved for being an egotistical brat.
And the elves in general tend to be willing to drop any pretenses of being allies when they have to help YOU instead of the other way around.
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