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CTC capped, now what?
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Post by
Nooska
^well I have no problems admitting that you are probably a better tank than me :-) (doing madness heroic sounds like a weekly thing, so you probably have better (as in, more skilled and better disciplined) dpsers as well.
I don't remember, do you raid 25s or 10s?
I run 10s and if I'm lucky I have tricks and an MD (luckily our rogue and hunter are some of our better behaved dps, and can help pick up stuff that other dps'ers just nuke) but regularly I won't have one or the other - I run with ~2% hit and 20 expertise in stamina heavy gear - I don't have problems keeping threat if I actually get the pull (disregarding MD and tricks) but I do have problems if a dps pulls the boss up to 1 second before me (if I actually count down in seconds rather than a countdown thats slightly faster (I cast exo on 2, its a 1.4 second cast and it hits when I would be saying 0))
Post by
Fetzie
I raid 10m.
I count down from 3, hit Divine Plea at 2, potion and Inq at 1, then start my CS-AS-CS-J-CS-ShoR. The rest of the raid does something similar. Basically if nobody yells "STOP" before I say "2", we pull the boss 2 seconds later, and 5-6 dps start hitting the boss the moment I say "go". After 2.5 years your dps tend to learn when they are safe to start hitting things :)
I also have no problem wiping the pull if a dps is too quick, especially on a positioning sensitive fight like Zon'ozz.
Post by
hatman555
but that is what
Tricks
and MD are for.
Tricks are for damage ^_^
MD's are for threat.
Threat is very hard in the first 15 seconds of a fight for 2 reasons.
Tank misses
Everyone always mentions the tank missing attacks. That's only one part of it.
Bosses misses
If the boss misses you, you're not taking damage, if you are not taking damage, you don't have vengance, if you don't have vengance you don't hit as hard as 410 ilevel DPS
I tank for 2 warriors and 4 rogues that are all full BiS and its a nightmare. The only saving grace there is a hunter MD. If you don't have a hunter MD, its impossible to hold thread if you get bad RNG on misses. MD's give you that 15 seconds that you need to get your damage up, and your attacks on.
Precasting is dangerous sure, but more because if they mess it up, they can mess up everyone's pre-pots, and then the rage will truly fly.
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
Nooska
@ fetzie, 2 questions;
1) you are raidleading? I absolutely agree, that wiping a pull is a good tool (and even better at teaching the "don't pull") but not one available to a lot of tanks, sadly - I don't think I'd get my raidleader to agree to a pull wiping due to messed up positioning as a matter of course - and calling it 20 seconds in doesn't teach the lesson (applying animal training techniques to raiders seems a little too appropriate *cough*)
2) how do you lead off with CS easily? as I said in my previous post I usually pull with exo, which is then followed up by AS and J while boss runs to me (excepting on morchok and zon'ozz where I run in respectively without and after exo).
The DP/Inq prepull is something I might try, but usually I reserve DP for double SotR'ing during AW, which (when there is no burn phase) I pop at 3 HP to also increase my threat in the beginning.
Post by
hatman555
2) how do you lead off with CS easily? as I said in my previous post I usually pull with exo, which is then followed up by AS and J while boss runs to me (excepting on morchok and zon'ozz where I run in respectively without and after exo).
The DP/Inq prepull is something I might try, but usually I reserve DP for double SotR'ing during AW, which (when there is no burn phase) I pop at 3 HP to also increase my threat in the beginning.
I'll try to answer that one. Pulling with Exo / AS / J sounds like a good idea, but it really disrupts your rotation. Pulling with CS is not as hard as it seems because bosses are slow and have big hit boxes.
Run into the boss with out doing any actions. The boss will not react to your proximity faster than you can close the range to CS. Taunt and cast your first CS at the same time, after that you have AS and J to fill out your CS rotation properly.
One of the most notable advantages of starting a boss fight with a melee attack is that the boss will never shift the the spot he needs to be in, and you will be able to build up your SoT stacks quicker because your white attacks will be in range from the first action.
This makes a huge difference when you are raiding with a guild that will open their DPS as soon as the boss is activated to maximize the damage they get from their pre-pots.
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
Fetzie
The only boss that I open at range is Yor'sahj, because we pull him to where we are standing.
Bosses often have extremely small aggro ranges, all of them practically require you to be in melee range before they will attack you. If you open up in melee range, there isn't a chance that your AS will miss, and the boss will be attacking a melee before you are in range. Make sure you are the first thing the boss sees and he will hit you first. It doesn't matter if the dps open up with bloodlust and potions because you pile on 500K threat before the first fireballs hit the boss.
Post by
Nooska
We don't ranged pull yor for some reason (I'm not the tactician for the raid group, haven't been since BC, thankfully), but we do rangepull Hagara to get her to the edge of the platform (and to ignore the first focused assault on each phase) - how do you do range pulsl when you do them?
I did change it up on sundays Hagara pull and pulle dwith 3 x Exo before she got to me to save AS and J for the rotation, not quite sure if it helped or hurt but I did get into the rotation more easily, so thats an upside ofc.
Post by
Fetzie
Exorcism does %^&* all damage, why bother using it to pull?
I use Judgement, then AS, then Hand of Reckoning to make absolutely sure that the boss stays on my the next 3 seconds.
Post by
hatman555
I did change it up on sundays Hagara pull and pulle dwith 3 x Exo before she got to me to save AS and J for the rotation, not quite sure if it helped or hurt but I did get into the rotation more easily, so thats an upside ofc.
3 exo casts? at 1.5 second cast and 0 haste, the boss really took 4.5 seconds to reach you? O.o
I use Judgement, then AS, then Hand of Reckoning to make absolutely sure that the boss stays on my the next 3 seconds. The more time the boss is at range from you the more complicated threat wise a pull will get if your DPS is DPSing. Fetzie's pull is right, but you should really try and reduce boss movement in general.
On Hagara, if you are trying to get her to one side of the room to get her close to where an ice crystal will appear, pull her to half the distance, and then slowly S key back, never moving more than a few steps at a time, so the melee can follow and no miss attacks.
Cheers,
Hat
Post by
Fetzie
Yor'sahj is the only boss I range-pull. The rest are either stationary, or you don't "pull" like Spine or Madness.
Post by
hatman555
The rest are either stationary, or you don't "pull" like Spine or Madness.
I have to say, over all this raid set of bosses was pretty boring to tank. Except for spine which was insane, all the fights were pretty strait forward, and pretty much, max out some health, and hope you're healers know what they are doing.
Hat
Post by
Ahrendel
The rest are either stationary, or you don't "pull" like Spine or Madness.
I have to say, over all this raid set of bosses was pretty boring to tank. Except for spine which was insane, all the fights were pretty strait forward, and pretty much, max out some health, and hope you're healers know what they are doing.
Hat
I dunno. I got a kick out of Blackhorn heroic, but only for the Goriona and Blackhorn part in phase two when she's down. That was fun and felt like a good rush. It's the only one where tank taunt swapping seems like it was ever supposed to really matter, as well, unlike normal (not that we do normal anymore) Morchok and Ultraxion (whose swap mechanic is dull and boring).
You're right, overall, though. This raid was pretty bland for tanking.
I still miss Ulduar. God, remember that stuff? Tank dies no matter what on Iron Council heroic! Or splitting the raid into two groups for Thorim. God, every raid needs to have more creative encounters like Ulduar. ._. *nostalgia binge time*
Post by
Fetzie
If I am honest pretty much the whole expansion has been quite boring as the tank :/ Individual gems, sure, but on the whole not very interesting at all. Way too many "just stand there getting hit while we do some damage over here out of harm's way" bosses.
Post by
Ahrendel
Ahh, I didn't tank anything previous to DS, except to go back after I was ilvl 400 and do T11, T12 for the lulz.
I don't think anything is going to top Ulduar's experience for a long while. They'll really have to out-do themselves something fierce.
Post by
Nooska
I did change it up on sundays Hagara pull and pulle dwith 3 x Exo before she got to me to save AS and J for the rotation, not quite sure if it helped or hurt but I did get into the rotation more easily, so thats an upside ofc.
3 exo casts? at 1.5 second cast and 0 haste, the boss really took 4.5 seconds to reach you? O.o
I think I have a cast time of 1.42 currently on exo, the first is precast as its my pull, and she stops on her way to me to cast Shattered Ice so I can fit in 2 and stand still for about half a second before I can melee her.
I use exo because I prefer not to use AS and J due to the above concernes about rotation, and I'm liking it.
Post by
azzgunther
Nooska I almost think you've developed your bad impressions of precasting based on Hagara, which is the one fight in DS that it is possible to lose aggro off the pull (though only if you're doing the ranged pull method to avoid the first Focused Assault). Even there it's nearly impossible to have problems but I can see how it could happen with the few attacks you can get off in the span of the 2 taunts.
If you do Fetzie's rotation above you'll never have aggro issues on a single target. The one modification I would do there is start off with an AS just as I'm coming into melee range, because I feel like there is a universal cooldown's worth of time between facepulling the boss and actually being in melee range. Might as well use that time for the extra attack.
Excuse the upcoming unsolicited advice, as I don't mean it to be offensive but there is no way to write it without a judgmental tone:
I quit a guild 4 months ago largely due to a tank who was too controlling and inflexible to adjust after conceiving a notion. He, too, asked us to hold off on DPS which, during front-end progression, was a substantial DPS loss because not only did we lose that 4 second DPS window that you talked about earlier in the thread but we lost 4 seconds of time buffed to the high heavens from pre-potting.
This causes two problems, one obvious and one subtle:
1.) If we hit an enrage (soft or hard enrage) it could have been because of holding off DPS. Did your group ever wipe on Ultraxion at under 1 million health? 6 people doing 40k DPS (assuming they usually do 30-35k but are currently pot-buffed) for 4 seconds is 960,000 damage. While pretty much every other tank is NOT asking his DPS to wait, you are - and you are responsible for every wipe you guys had under 1 million health on that fight. Extend this to all the other fights as applicable.
2.) More subtly, having a shaky tank makes the rest of the raid play worse. You are the anchor - the stone - the foundation of the group. With the ease of generating threat these days you are the factor that lets them do their job at 105%. If you're asking them to hold back on the pull that odd caution may seep into how they play during the rest of the fight and raid.
Basically you've got a bunch of people who have Pally tanked telling you that there are adjustments to totally negate the problem you're having. I'm risking sounding like a jerk a bit here to also recommend a slight attitude adjustment on top of that.
Post by
Nooska
Naah, Hagara isn't my meter, its just the best example of where things get screwed up when it goes wrong.
I have had problems with dps that precast pull on Zon'ozz, yorsahj - even once in a while Ultraxion (if we pause between the drakes and him to eat or somesuch - but thats a 1-chance per raid, so thats negligable).
My issue isn't so much the holding aggro, though that is a large proble - my problem is that precasting requires very precise reactions on cancelling the precast if situations change, and that it requires a very precise timing of the pull - if I pull 1 second earlier, the precast wasn't a real precast, and if I pull .3 seconds later, the dps has pulled.
Regarding your comments;
1) yes, we have wiped on ultraxion, but thats a bad example, as on ultraxion you cannot precaste (except once per raid if you actually pause for 40+ seconds between the drakes and Ult - you can't initate casts on him before he is attackable, at witch time I can attack him as well - also, most wipes that low has nothing to do with precasting, but rather people screwing up their dps during the course of the fight - I will reiterate, since it seems you have confused the 2; I
do
have a problem with precasting (as in, I think it is an issue, and too risky compared to the gains - 1 - 3 second shorter fight - at most), I
do not
have a problem with prepotting.
2) Actually, the tank is only the foundation if the tank is calling shots - I am not, I am not a raid leader and I am not an officers, so I do not decide when we are ready to go, I wait patiently for the "feel free" order, after which I initiate a countdown - a countdown that can be interrupted at any time before saying "one" due to someone calling out wait - aborting a pull is easy for a tank, I just stop moving/don't cast anything.
I ask "my" dps to not precast because I really don't want to waste the time with bad tries - my guild isn't cutting edge, when we wipe its not due to losing 1-3 seconds worth of dps in the beginning of the fight, its because dps makes stupid mistakes and die (and lose 5 seconds + buffs worth of dps from being battle ressed, og completely lose the dps).
We are currently 5/8 hc but are far from having the 5 on farm (though we've decided to extend now nd keep working on warmaster), in regards to being an anchor, if I were to say anything I think too much of the responsibility for making sure is taken by the tanks - if I don't ask dps to hold back or be aware they will happily feel comfortable and be overconfident.
Regardless, precasting
should not be needed
at allf or any guilds now, and if you look through my comments in this thread you will see that I acknowledge that bleeding edge guilds have that need, because they actually undergear the content they are attempting.
Precasting is only ever needed if you wipe to the enrages <4 seconds before a kill and everyone performed flawlessly - otherwise its something else that needs to be picked up - taking that into account precasting is, for the 99% that aren't in the bleeding edge, a wasteful, overly risky practise thats bound to screw up sometimes (even if there isn't a screwup 90% of the times) wher ethe blame can only fall on the precaster - its not the tanks fault that the precaster didn't stop or mistimed the cast, and its not the healers fault or the raid leaders fault.
Finally, none of the other pally tanks here are telling me tht there are adjustments that totally negate the precasting issue, they have suggestions on how to better keep aggro when issues arise (which they do, for most since I don't think any pally tanks are going for hit/exp solely when progressing) - but it has nothing to do with precasting - it has to do with one of the issues that arise when precasting goes wrong, namely grabbing aggro back and holding it.
Post by
azzgunther
When I'm tanking I use a '/dbm pull 12 command' so that everybody gets a 12 second countdown. If you make contact with the boss as the timer hits zero - with the rotation mentioned in the thread - then there's no conceivable way you could have trouble with aggro other than clumsily mouse clicking or monstrous lag issues. You have two taunts.
My experience: My Mage has been 8/8h for a while now and, over ~five months of pulls in DS, our tank has never once lost aggro during a pull for longer than it took to taunt, and the need to do that is rare. A volley of buffed Pyroblasts, Starfires, Soulfires, Steady Shots, and whatever else all slam into the boss as the tank makes contact. I see it pull after pull, wipe after wipe, hundreds...maybe even thousands...of times and it never fails. That's why the notion of being unable or unwilling to do it just screams at me from the page "FIX THIS THINKING". On my Paladin I tank for another very casual guild one night a week and we're 6/8h using this same method (I'm suddenly curious to know how many times I've died between the two toons now haha).
Your raid leader needs to give you assist so you can hit a /readycheck macro button and then a /dbm pull macro button when everybody checks in. Forget about aborting pulls. Why would you abort a pull? That's like a runner not getting off the blocks and then asking everybody to come back. Give that timer a workout.
if I don't ask dps to hold back or be aware they will happily feel comfortable and be overconfident.
This is a tragic sentence for your DPS players, whether it's because they legitimately need to be corralled like that or because they have a tank who is corralling them regardless. I'm genuinely curious what you meant by this.
Corrections:
-Three people have told you to precast and work on your threat off the pull, not one.
-You can pre-cast on Ultraxion after a wipe since he doesn't attack until attacked.
Ultimately what it comes down to is how seriously you take raiding, I suppose. If you want to get through content you would benefit by taking psychology into account. There are thousands of books about how teamwork functions: sports coaches whose players excelled / team dynamics / rivalries. If you're raiding with decent players and determined to win you'll do everything you can to succeed and set a positive example as the tank. If you're missing one of those two factors I guess it doesn't really matter.
Post by
Nooska
Yes, it is a tragic thing for (some of) our dps, I'm not going to elaborate further though, because I don't want to discuss specific other peoples performance - a timer won't change anything, if me counting down over TS isn't good enough a timer won't be either.
As to why a pull could be aborted - someone d/c's, someone realizes that something crucial wasn't the way it should be.
The reaosn I mentioned 5/8 is exactly to clarify that we are not cutting edge - we are not random casual pug, but we are a long way from cutting edge.
I do have assist in raids - to be able to see readychecks and to be able to do raidwarnings for taunting or using major CDs (thus telling my healers that I will be taking less damage for instance) - but having assist and being tank does not mean I lead the raid, nor taht I should.
I know raidleading as a tank has its benefits - but unless I AM leading the raid, I am not the one that should be doing the readychecks and I'm not the one saying go, thats my raidleader - and I am blessed with 2 pretty decent raidleaders - one of whom I've colead raids with back in burning crusade (back then I was tank raidleading).
I am quite familiar with psychology and teamleading, but thats not what I do during the raids, I tank for the team, and I'm not the one able to or responsible for setting a positive (or any) attitude for the raid.
Also, I think you are taking my opinion and drawing a conclusion there is no basis for - yes I call it out when a pull goes bad due to someone doing something wrong - especially when its been said several times, but I don't think you can infer from anything I write that I do it preemptively or constantly.
As to ultraxion, yes you "can" precast on ultraxion after a wipe, but since there is a 30 second wait after activating the encounter, noone is going to be precasting as everyone will be attacking when the counter reaches zero.
Also, you seem to be missing my point - if I have to taunt during the pull, someone is too focused on how they look on meters rather than doing their best for the raid, OR I've had a long series of misses/parries/dodges (which will happen sometimes, but not often).
My other point you entirely ignored - precasting Is. Not. Needed.(caveat the exemptions previously mentioned) - Thus it is an unnecessary risk, designed ONLY to increase dps numbers for the precaster (which it won't even do, unless only that person precasts - which sortof proves my first point - that its absolutely not needed).
Raiding has nothing to do with looking good on meters, or a dps precasting to gain a little dps over the fight, its about executing a fight sensibly, safely and reliably - this includes not taking unnecessary risks - you dont have dps staying in the fire to do more dps either, do you?
Post by
azzgunther
As to ultraxion, yes you "can" precast on ultraxion after a wipe, but since there is a 30 second wait after activating the encounter, noone is going to be precasting as everyone will be attacking when the counter reaches zero.
No. You can precast with a timer because he floats there, fully hittable. Try it out if you don't believe me.
Also, you seem to be missing my point - if I have to taunt during the pull, someone is too focused on how they look on meters rather than doing their best for the raid, OR I've had a long series of misses/parries/dodges (which will happen sometimes, but not often).
I don't see where I missed your point; I disagreed with it. I believe you're wrong in saying that you shouldn't need to taunt. You should taunt on most bosses a few seconds into the pull, just to be safe. You seem so worried about taking risks but then you aren't using your abilities which, apparently, would help you out a lot because of threat problems.
My other point you entirely ignored - precasting Is. Not. Needed.(caveat the exemptions previously mentioned) - Thus it is an unnecessary risk, designed ONLY to increase dps numbers for the precaster (which it won't even do, unless only that person precasts - which sortof proves my first point - that its absolutely not needed).
Again, I simply disagree 100%. I can only base my experiences on my upper-middle end guild's solid tanks and my solid tanking so perhaps your experience implies that threat is slippery. In my mind, once a tank hits the boss once, it's tarred to him permanently - and I think you could learn to do that. Because of that we want everybody doing their absolute highest DPS and that means prepotting+precasting. It's aggressive. It's been worth a few kills (any kill with more than 19 people down would probably have been a wipe sans precasting and we've had a few) overtly and worth countless others subtly.
That's the psychology I was talking about: leaning forward spamming buttons like a Korean kid vs. laid back, sorta going for it but waiting for permission. It's a raid-wide atmosphere thing that happens...people raise their level of play based on what's around them.
Anyhow, this got a tad philosophical and no addict quits their habit until they decide to do it on their own. I hope you'll at least try the new rotation out, even if you don't plan to WRAAAAGHHH it up anytime soon.
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