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Blood Death Knights Need a Serious Nerf In PVP
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Post by
StrangerWifCandy
Went up against double blood DKs on my warrior alt, as war/sham in 2s.
Had to default to stalling for a 47 minute draw game.
Post by
Nathanyal
Went up against double blood DKs on my warrior alt, as war/sham in 2s.
Had to default to stalling for a 47 minute draw game.
Funny thing is I faced the same comp on my Hunter with a Holy Pally partner. It took a little time but we won. Killing DKs are quite easy as a hunter, kiting and tranq shot help a lot here. It was also the 2nd time we faced a double DK team in the past few weeks. I guess they can beat several comps, but others just mop the floor with them.
If anything is OP its resto Shamans, we had to wait for a draw game with one. His Spriest partner left after 30 mins and we couldn't get the shaman down after that.
Edit: Forgot I almost posted the exact same thing on the first page >.<
Post by
870547
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
cefm
To the original poster - and to the replies:
Poster - You posted in the "PvP forum" which means you should expect a lot of experienced PvP players to respond, which is what you got. Also, this topic has been beaten into the ground so many times already that the responses are on-call.
Your points are all 100% valid for low-skill uncoordinated play, which is pretty much what you get in most unrated random BG's. I know because I suck at PvP and my Shaman and Warrior both seemed worthless and I actually did OK my very first time as a Blood DK, which goes to show that you're partially right. But the responses about skilled and coordinated play are totally right as well. Blood does lack good cc, can be kited and burned by casters, and basically NEEDS someone to pick a fight with them in order to work, which good PvP'ers simply don't do.
Repliers - you're all 100% right, but only in a limited context. You forget that everyone has to start PvP somewhere and that's usually random BG's in which the Blood DK is king. You have to get good somewhere, and most players are simply going to give up on PvP if they feel that they can't win. Blizz may think they balanced the classes, but if they only focused on level 85 arenas then they're gimping their own player base as MANY people will skip PvP entirely for reasons stated by the poster. Blizz has created a situation in which on day 1 of PvP, many classes are driving Hyundais and when the Blood DK blows by them in the Corvette the only response is "yeah, but it doesn't corner well at high speeds". So? What consolation is that to me?
Post by
870547
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
They are a tank spec, but deal massive amounts of damage. A tank spec should never be able to do high amounts of damage, since they have high armor and avoidance, as well as high hp, much more so than any dps spec.
so can bear druids (mine is geared in ilvl 340, and yet can deal Mangle-crits of 36k, with a 40% crit chance thanks to pulverize) and pallys (say with me "100k shield of the righteous") and prot warriors (Again, repeat after me "120k shield slam") your point is null.
Damage absorbing abilities. Yes, I am aware that other class specs have damage absorbing abilities, but blood dks can absorb physical AND spell damage, while still dealing the EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF DAMAGE
damage that is still lower than a DPS specced class. At best the highest crit I've dealt with Heart strike was 50k, whereas my obli can easily crit for over 90k. Big effing deal.
I've seen ele shamans dealing 180k crits with lava burst ,so please cry me a river.
3. They can self heal constantly. On top of their high damage, high hp, high armor, high avoidance, and damage absorbing abilities, they can also heal themselves up constantly THROUGH THEIR DAMAGE.
only if (and this is a big if) they can land a hit on you.
I guess for some people, the mere strategy of applying snares/roots, and then attacking from range is too hard, but come on........
Edit:
After doing more reading, this is from the perspective of a shaman correct?
You do realize that shamans can now permanently cast lightning bolt WHILE MOVING, and can cast lava burst thanks to spirit-walker's grace.
If you are bad enough to not frost-shock the DK/use earthbind totem to slow him down, and then go into wolf-mode to put distance, and snipe with lightning bolt, then its your own damn fault. Dks only absorb spell damage once every 45 seconds, since AMS lasts 5 seconds, that's 40 whooping seconds where the DK can be perma-slowed (Frost-shock is your friend) and sniped away with lightning bolt. If he grips you and chains you, ghost-wolf is your friend.
And that fancy blood shield? it can be purged.
TL;DR: When it comes to OP, every class is OP except the one you play.
Post by
870547
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
meh, in matters of pvp, we must never take sold seriously, he always makes threads on the pvp section to whine.
When its not "Horde always turtles on AV, its not fair" its "Blood Dks are too OP" and who can forget the legendary tirade of the keybinds (that got him banned due to HUGE amounts of flamming on his part............. to the very people he asked for help in the first place)
Post by
Meldoron
I haven't been crit by a blood dk that I remember only because I either never focus them when I'm in a group, or when I focus them solo, I don't provide enough burst to stack their vengeance all that high. The only thing broken about them is their vengeance and how easily they can survive once it is stacked high enough to deal their damage.
My blood dk is poorly geared (t11 with some vicious) and I get to points where I see how vengeance is ridiculous. At first, I played it like I did my mage or my shaman and just help fight healers and burn people down, but they are best alone. I can't count how many geared players I have bursted down because I have people stacking my vengeance and my death strikes crit around 40k; especially with empowered rune weapon to just decimate people before I run out of defensives.
I wouldn't care if they slightly buffed tank's damage, but I really think vengeance needs to go away. Threat isn't a problem at all anymore and trying to fix vengeance is a waste of time in my mind.
Post by
Kannon
I run a DK, PvP Frost, PvE tank, not many people I actually know are into PvP, so it's mostly unrated BGs.
That being said, I will roll blood for flag carrying and tanking bosses.
With the threat buff, Vengeance isn't needed. However, tanks _do_ contribute to raid or party DPS, a flat damage buff would solve both problems.
Besides Vengeance being a... weird mechanic, it does serve one purpose in PvP. It ensures the silly melee that beat on the tank go pop in a hurry.
Unfortunately, it also hoses the good players that kite and stay away from the DK get hit with a _NASTY_ DS when Death Grip is off CD. (Or the DK simulacrum's a blink off the mage to give their healer a hug. Poor PvE geared priest didn't know what hit em. Crit the poor sucker into next week.)
Some of the trolls did have a decent point, though... if you're always on the pointy end of the class, it's hard to tell their shortcomings. Those of us with bad cases of altitus are one step ahead in that regard. I play a DK, I know what they have, how they can eat casters for lunch, and where their gaps are. Someone who doesn't, that was on the wrong end of an epic DK+Shammy > Entire team flag hold would be perfectly justified in thinking that shamans and DKs were stupidly OP.
That said, most melee will beat down a frost DK toe to toe, which is where kiting and burst and run comes in... something that works exceptionally well against a blood DK.
Now, those OP rogues on the other hand... (I need a sarcasm font.)
Post by
Rankkor
Some of the trolls did have a decent point, though.
so...... for disagreeing with him, and actually showing him he's wrong, we're trolls?
/logic-fallacy.
Post by
Monday
People seem to be unable to realize what a troll is anymore. Apparently, if someone disagrees with you, they are now a troll.
Post by
Kannon
Wow, so serious. I really do need that sarcasm font.
For the sake of clarification, I was playing on that the way-too-tightly-wound troll OP called everyone who disagreed trolls. Personally, I think the OP is full of it and agree with the overwhelming sentiment of the thread. What I get for trying sarcasm on New Year's Eve.
In short, DKs aren't OP, the only one I'd call a troll is the original poster, and I really need a sarcasm font.
And a small note that it is much harder to see how balanced a class is unless you play one. I, not having a rogue and always being on the pointy end of one, am much more likely to think that rogues are BS, because I lack perspective on their weaknesses.
Post by
870547
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
apocalypsa
Sold, if you play on EU-Sylvanas - I just beat you in a 2v2 on my blood dk.
Guess that kinda proves your point.
Edit: Blood dk/subrogue 2v2. Good stuff.
Post by
588688
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Rankkor
@rankorr, I play a feral, and I think bear is overpowered too. I think tank specs in general right now are too strong, at least ferals and blood dks. I don't see why one character should be able to take on 3-5 people at a time. If you're dealing lots of damage and absorbing lots of damage at the same time, that's overpowered. Since 4.3, any blood dk I faced who isn't in bad gear has killed me long before I can get him down to half hp, the damage is too strong for a spec that take so much damage damage in return. A
pa-pa-pa-pa............ you said this was from the perspective of an elemental shaman, and I gave you a sure-way method to fulminate blood Dks as one. You said nothing of feral druid.
If feral druid, just go bear mode and out-tank him. Bears have more "Oh sh1t" keys than blood DKs.
on one hand you got frenzied regen, you got savage instinct, barkskin, thorns (To return damage when taking damage) and Savage Defense makes the Blood shield look like a pellet gun when compared to a anti-materiel rifle.
then on the damage side, bear can stack vengeance every bit as good as blood can, but they got berserking, to pull off those mangle-crits of up to 110k EVERY SECOND.
so again, I don't see your point.
Every class on the game can be countered.
bears aren't unkillable either, they have their achilees heels as well.
I can basically take almost class/spec fairly 1v1, but when it comes to blood dks in good gear, I can hardly dent their hp and I get killed by them so fast?
cause you don't know how to fight one.
Most rogues ignore that disarm = no death strike for 10 seconds, more than enough time to anihilate the DK if you know your stuff.
Most arms warriors ignore the trowdown+disarm+bladestorm combo that ALSO fulminates DKs into oblivion.
the list goes on and on.
and besides you said 1v1, and wow isn't balanced on 1v1, this is a team game, both in PVP and PVE, its why we don't have soloable raids, or soloable instances, everything has to be done as a team, and pvp is no different.
if we get down to 1vs1 I cant kill a frost mage on 1 vs 1 no matter how hard I try, and yet you don't see me whining about it on a forum, because I know that while on 1 vs 1 I can't put a dent on them, with my friend (resto shaman) at my side, the 2 of us can make mincemeat out of any frost mages that cross our way.
Why are there so many threads all over the internet since 4.3 complaining that blood is too strong since the patch? If the spec wasn't overpowered, you wouldn't have countless threads dedicated to complaining about them being too strong.
people will complain about everything, wheter its justified or not. Since the dawn of time we've seen the endless topics on Frost mages, on rogue-stuns, on ret pallys, the newest fashion is Gurth being too OP for a PVE sword.
the common denominator is people who don't know how to play. (and believe me, they are more vast than you'd realize)
Well then, if the 90% can't beat a certain class because it's too strong for them, do you think blizzard should keep it that way?
yes, absolutely. if the fault is on the players, then its THEM who need to learn and adapt, or crash and burn.
kill or be killed.
law of the jungle.
If you are dieing to a blood DK on SERIOUS competitive PVP (Remember, this is a team game, wow isn't balanced on 1vs1, its balanced on team vs team) then the fault lies in you and in your companions.
if blizzard (or any other game developer) has to fix your shortcomings for you, all you'll get is a mess of classes where everyone is mangled, and random dumb luck determinates the winner.
I just don't think it's fair for a spec to have very strong survivability as well as very strong damage.
again, very strong damage my ass, I happen to be quite well geared, and the highest I've had my Heart strikes crit for was between 50k to 70k if vengeance was high enough. Whereas as frost I was putting crits of 90k every 3 seconds.
just about every caster you can shake a stick at hits harder than a blood DK.
Also, if blood wasn't overbuffed, then why are there suddenly so many blood dks in bgs since the 4.3 came out? Why is everyone suddenly speccing blood now if it wasn't buffed and better than the other specs?
its called culling the weak.
On pvp, you'd be amazed at how many people actually KNOW how to play. Don't believe me? play on a battleground or arena on the PTR.
on the PTR people are ALWAYS Übergeared with the latest epics of the most recent season.
with everyone geared better than God, one would think they'd do well in bgs right? WRONG, they are dumber than bricks, and are easy prey for those who actually know how to play.
IF you see many blood Dks on a BG is because on a BG (particulary RANDOM bgs as oposed to premade ones) people don't play as a team, everyone is "every man for himself" and on 1vs1 there's A LOT of classes that can rape everyone else.
Arenas are a completely different thing, cuz in arenas, if u try to go "lone ranger" style, u're gonna get your ass smoked
TL;DR: Get a rogue, and do pvp with that rogue AS A TEAM and you will smoke any Blood Dks that show up your way.
Rogue uses disarm = DK can't use DS for 10 seconds, that's 10 seconds of no blood shield, and no healing.
Rogue uses Shiv = Vengeance goes POOF, all stacks, gone, presto-manifesto, your Dk is now peeled of any extra AP.
Rogue uses Stun = DK can't heal, attack, gain extra AP, and its ripe for the killing.
If on 10 seconds of this deadly combo you and a rogue can't kill a blood DK, then maybe you should reconsider playing something else.
Post by
apocalypsa
Blood dk's are more OP at killing baddies. But seriously... any good rogue or kiting class absolutely owns them. Every tried killing an elemental shaman as blood? Lets just say that its not fun.
Ferals on the other hand got the same survivability but arent vulnerable to disarm, have cc, can switch to cat to do a crapload of damage even without vengeance when they arent focused, and have actual mobility.
I think we can all agree with Orranis that vengeance as a mechanic needs to be toned down.
But Soldrethar, do you play on EU-Sylvanas?
Post by
Rankkor
But Soldrethar, do you play on EU-Sylvanas?
nope, he plays on US-Shattered Hand.
Blood dk's are more OP at
killing baddies
. But seriously... any good rogue or kiting class absolutely owns them. Every tried killing an elemental shaman as blood? Lets just say that its not fun.
All the classes and specs are good at killing baddies. I killed a baddie as a holy paladin once :P a class that isn't very famous for hitting hard or anything.
Rogues = own blood Dks to the ground (Shiv+disarm = dead DK)
Ele-shamans = Own Blood Dks to the ground (if the DK grips you, thunderstorm+frost shock, if the DK is close to you, frost shock and ghost-wolf, shaman can cast lightning bolt at a distance, and can root, snare, knock-back, CC, and snipe from range. When a blood DK isn't in melee range to use blood strike, he is worthless.)
Ferals on the other hand got the same survivability but arent vulnerable to disarm, have cc, can switch to cat to do a crapload of damage even without vengeance when they arent focused, and have actual mobility.
Yep, not only bears can't be disarmed, their savage defense is far stronger than Bloodshield, because they have an insanely high crit rate (my poorly geared bear has 40%, with a decent gear it would be even higher) and it has a 50% chance to proc on crit, so its far easier to get multiple stacks of savage defense than blood shield, plus bears can't be snared (they can shift back and forth) they got a root, an inmobilize, a stun, a CC, and more.
I think this is a case of pot calling the kettle back.
(Note that I'm not complaining that bears are OP, because while they ARE harder to kill than a blood DK, they can be killed if u know your stuff)
I think we can all agree with Orranis that vengeance as a mechanic needs to be toned down.
not really, a single rogue using shiv can get rid of all the stacks of vengeance, as can a hunter using tranquilizer shot, as can a druid using soothe, and if I'm not mistaken there is at least 1 more class that can dispel enrage effects.
Post by
250582
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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