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Moral Ambiguity (Grey Vs Grey) Vs Black Vs White Morality
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Post by
588688
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Post by
Azazel
Whichever is a better book.
Post by
149406
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Post by
134377
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Post by
gamerunknown
I prefer moral objectivism in some instances (for example, the Chapman brothers called the Bulger murderers "heroes" because they believe in a moral philosophy of transgressionism). I think in such instances one can reject their critique of modernism absolutely. In other instances though, moral absolutism can be quite dull - like in Atlas Shrugged, where there was some pretty hardcore support for the moral beauty of adultery written by someone with a vested interest in precisely that (as well as a rejection of the "looters" style of adultery, which smacks of special pleading and personal spite).
By the way, I think there was a shift in morality in Warcraft itself from the first and second games, where no excuse was given to the orc's actions and one was really just playing the evil side.
If
all
art was tragic and relativistic then moral absolutism would be revolutionary and I think the opposite applies too. So I'm glad for the diversity.
Post by
Adamsm
Depends on the writer and the setting; something like Warcraft? It needs to be grey vs grey if it's about Horde and Alliance relations.
Post by
xaratherus
It depends on what I'm in the mood to read, honestly. Right now I'm re-reading a number of Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels, and despite their placement as "British fantasy humor", they're very satirical and can be morally complex.
Heck, the primary city in the series is ruled by a tyrant (he believes in one man, one vote; he's the man, and he has the vote) who helped reduce crime by organizing a Thieves' Guild (because since crime is inevitable, it's better that it be organized so it can be kept in check).
Post by
Sweetscot
I like both also.
Post by
OverZealous
Depends on my mood, really. And, like Adams said - whichever is the better book. The best books I've read, however (aside from possibly LotR), have been morally ambigious.
I don't mind books where the originally black-and-white character slowly moves into a moral grey-zone, either. Happens quite a bit. Zahariel and Luther in
Fallen Angels
, for example.
Post by
pezz
Part of Orson Scott Card's introduction to Future on Ice, one of his collections of science-fiction stories from the 80s, is really useful here:
Ah, but it's grand to be on the side of Truth and Justice, especially when we never have to explore exactly what is true and who is just. Everybody's in uniform.
I don't like relativism in any of its forms, but I do like stories that treat Ethics with the seriousness and depth it deserves.
Post by
238331
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Post by
MyTie
Saying that nothing is Black and White or that everything is Black and White is, itself, Black and White thinking. In my opinion, some things are Black and White, and some things are Grey and Grey.
Was the killing of that american citizen terrorist right? Grey
Is abortion right? Black and White
Post by
238331
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Post by
588688
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Post by
gamerunknown
I'd say the VanCleefs and the Kirin Tor are (the Kirin Tor use torture, they're pretty much meant to represent the US). The VanCleefs were only ever represented by the official (monarchical) channels when their original contention was over not being paid or given political representation after rebuilding Stormwind.
Speaking, indirectly, of monarchy, I think guilds would benefit a bit from having a democratic option, where different options must be ratified by a percentage of active officers (like promoting/demoting a member to and from officer status, or disbanding/transferring the guild - the tag active could fall off after not logging in after x months). Once a guild voted into the democratic system, it wouldn't be able to vote out again though. The guild could also set limits to what percentage was required and the length between whether one is considered an officer or not.
Post by
ElhonnaDS
I think the medium of the story has a lot to do with what I like. In a video game, I prefer things to be more black and white. I don't mind a little weakness of character, as no one is perfect, but when I am immersed in a story and am evaluating the actions of the protagonist in terms of "I did this" rather than "they did this," I prefer to be the good guy. I never play the evil/hostile/mercenary path on games with a morality meter, and I couldn't even begin to enjoy a game like "Grand Theft Auto" or "God of War" where the protagonist is supposed to be an evil, heartless scumbag. It just doesn't appeal to me.
In a movie or a show, I don't mind a little grey, but the main character has to be relatable enough to still feel for them. In Dexter, even though the main characters is completely nuts, and a huge mess, pretty much everything he does seems to make the world a better place (I have only seen seasin one and part of season 2, so maybe that changes). He makes for a good boyfriend and surrogate father, his day job is to catch criminals, and all of the people he murders prey on innocent people. There are a lot of other dark protagonists who aren't the greatest people in the world, but are pitted against antagonists who are just so much worse, that you end up rooting for them. I wouldn't like a movie that was about an alcoholic, angry, violent ex-marine who goes around beating up family men, upstanding police officers, and rich people for kicks and money. But take the same character, and have him beat up pimps, mobsters and drug dealers for kicks and money, and suddenly he's the hero.
Post by
Adamsm
As for world of warcraft, I wouldn't say there is any one character in the story that's morally ambiguous, wow is black vs white in anything that's not horde vs alliance, but there aren't any single characters in wow who you can label as ambiguous instead of good or evil. Or a comic relief.
And it's fine to have black and white when it's the combined Horde/Alliance against some evil and vicious force; but not when it's the current versions of the factions against each other. Hell, even Rise of the Horde was gray vs white for the most part, as the Horde, until drinking the Blood, weren't 'zomg evil for the lulz!'....specific characters, such as Gul'dan and Blackhand? Sure. And you saw white hats on the Horde side as well: Doomhammer, Durotan and Draka.
Post by
xaratherus
All moral issues are grey. To label any moral issue "black and white" forces a false dichotomy on a complex world.
For instance, MyTie noted that abortion is a black and white issue - but there are millions who support abortion only in certain circumstances, such as for pregnancy resulting from incest or in extreme medical situations where pregnancy could easily result in the death of the mother
and
the child. Their very existence indicates, to me at least, that an issue that to MyTie is black and white is only such to him, and not universally.
Post by
Jubilee
There are three levels of morality: real objective moral weight of things, the individually perceived moral weight, and the combined social perception of morality. When arguing about the apparent dichotomy of morality, often people are talking about different levels of morality.
It is only in the last hundred years or so that literature has begun shifting towards the latter two levels of morality. For many centuries, society - and consequently literature - was interested in discovering what the objective standards of morality were. The more modern approach is to study morality through the subject, and on a grander scale morality though the subject of society as a whole.
Post by
Azazel
Was the killing of that american citizen terrorist right? Grey
Is abortion right? Black and White
...what?
This. In "abortion is right" there is no good or bad side. But please, let's not derail this thread into something like that.
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