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Haste for DK tanking?
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Post by
Pyreth
No, that's wrong. I have NOT taken into account the "luckiness" of the haste DK. I have NOT taken into account the DK's performance in the fight. I have taken the bosses.
Not true that the DK would have zero avoidance- he automatically has 5 parry and 5 dodge. The debuff/disarm idea can also be applied to avoidance DKs too :P for them, it's just a matter of luck. Haste, though less effective, is entirely more reliable.
No, boss DPS does not have a factor. This test was not about survivability. This was about damage reduction- so i took a set amount of DPS i collected from a dungeon source and applied it. This was just an example- statistics will no doubt be different for different bosses.
When you go from a heroic 5man boss (or reg..boss since it wasn't specified which you used.) To a raid boss. I'd bet my money that that 4% difference increases to much more.
Go do some testing on some firelands bosses. If your World of Logs records show true to your haste "tank" then you can throw it in everyone faces. =)
Post by
Silvertongue
Hussam was just an example. Yes, for higher up bosses the difference will be much larger, but for lower bosses the difference will be less or haste might even surpass avoidance.
To recap-
Haste does provide some benefits for a DK tank.
These benefits do not equal the benefits of avoidance, stat for stat.
Haste in large amounts is better than avoidance in small amounts.
Avoidance is much better than haste.
But haste should not be entirely discounted.
1DSPM is roughly equal to 5% avoidance, in a normal cata instance.
Haste should NOT replace avoidance, but serve as a "garnish," if you will.
Post by
Orranis
Logs or it didn't happen?
You've used some of the strangest way of computing things I've ever seen and are now stating things as fact.
Post by
Silvertongue
If you have troubles with my computations, I invite you all to try it yourselves. I am interested to see you you would do it.
Post by
Silvertongue
And I am stating them as facts, simply because they ARE facts, derived from my calculations with a set boss.
Post by
Azazel
A set boss should be a raid boss, not a heroic boss...
Post by
DraconisAerius
Also I decided to have a look at gear available this tier for
maximising haste vs maximising mastery
. As you can see in it, there's not a huge difference between stam, armor and str. So the core stats are pretty damn similar on dps and tank gear it seems. It also struck me as interesting that for both of those gearing ideas (stack haste and stack mastery) the tier chest piece is the weak point. Odd.
...What? You would
never
drop Mastery for Haste. Do you really thing 1.8k Haste beats 243 Stamina, 1k Mastery, 0.8k dodge and parry?
I'm not advocating one over the other. Just pointing out that it's possible to still have a reasonable amount of mastery along with haste.
Post by
Silvertongue
It wasn't even a heroic boss. This was a cata reg boss. If you would like the information from a raid boss, i would invite you to do it yourself, because i do not have the gear or ilvl required for a FL raid on my DK.
Post by
Orranis
You failed to prove anything, because it wasn't even a real time situation and your maths are so badly communicated I can't even start to imagine what you did least of all tell you why its wrong.
Post by
303016
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Silvertongue
I quit. I'm going to quit communimacating now because i feel most of you are retarded and fail to see the points which i have so clearly tried to make. I'm sorry i could not make this clear to you, but i resign. Carry on with your happy little lives.
Post by
Orranis
Uuuh... 'Kay.
Post by
303016
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
woohaa
So this is my last post in this thread because i want the OP to understand everyone's position on this topic because he's so hellbent on pushing his point he doesn't see the other side of the coin.
Is it possible- now hear me out on this- that haste might be a viable stat for tanking as a DK?
First off you started with this statement. Is haste a viable tanking stat? Now in forums viable is a very scary word to use...most people will perceive viable as "better" or "good" not "possible" or decent." You then went on to say this:
i believe stacking haste could increase your effectiveness as a tank
Now in your testing you found that haste is not better which completely proves your second statement completely wrong. You found it's decent on a regular dungeon boss....not heroic or a raid boss. Generally, with a decent healer you can tank a regular lvl 85 dungeon boss with 359 dps gear. Now you should have stopped when you found that haste wasn't better, you proved your theory wrong, but you wanted to get everyone to understand that haste was viable for tanking. However, you can't because your gear is not adequate enough to tank a raid boss, let alone say a ZG/ZA boss. This in itself is another point against you. You don't have the experience of tanking a raid level boss so you don't know how much incoming damage there will be.
The one thing you don't understand is unless you can prove (with actual logs) that haste is BETTER then avoidance. No one will take you seriously because if it's not better...it's not worth even talking about. DK tanks are already the only tank that needs to get hit/exp along with avoidance and mastery. Adding haste into the mix is just not something DK tanks will consider unless you can prove it's better then avoidance.
Now stop being emo, your not the first or the last person that will bring up something that everyone will shun. Atleast your not the guy in my signature.
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
DraconisAerius
So we have concluded that it's not viable right now, but do you guys think it would be more viable in 4.3 given the proposed change to Death Strike (meaning the heal and shield always proc) and the inflated amounts of stats we will have on gear? Do we think haste might become a better stat for us than expertise? I'm not gonna say better than hit cause we still need hit for like Outbreak and stuff and diseases are important yo.
Post by
Trishi
So we have concluded that it's not viable right now, but do you guys think it would be more viable in 4.3 given the proposed change to Death Strike (meaning the heal and shield always proc) and the inflated amounts of stats we will have on gear? Do we think haste might become a better stat for us than expertise? I'm not gonna say better than hit cause we still need hit for like Outbreak and stuff and diseases are important yo.
I'm only half awake here, but Mastery still sounds better from what I gather. Haste does little good against spikes, where a larger BS could do more than a DS or 2 every minute. Just thinking that it's probably better to mitigate a ton right after a spike, rather than mitigate more often, but for less.
Unless of course they take the first approach, and make tank dps more important. In that case, I suppose haste would be worth more, considering Mastery does nothing for our damage output. only oddity about the first proposed approach is... doesn't it kinda make the threat buff... meaningless? I mean, if they want us to do more than half of the DPS that our real DPS people do, what's the point of getting 5 times the TPS? *confused*
Post by
DraconisAerius
I'm not talking about haste v mastery anymore. I'm talking that our stat weights in 4.3 might, *might*, resemble something like Mastery>Dodge>Parry>Hit>Haste>Str>Exp
Post by
Trishi
Ah, of course. But if it's mainly for healing, wouldn't hit be of less concern?
In other words, is Outbreak really worth it to hit-cap? I realize the debuffs will take up time and runes to get up if we miss, but isn't the chance too low to make it actually worth it? If we don't need to hit with DS to heal ourselves, hit shouldn't be of much concern when gearing for survival, right? Besides, for initial threat (which can still be a problem with trigger-happy DPS, who doesn't even wait for their tank to get the first hit in), I'm still more fond of just throwing a IT+PS for the initial build-up. Outbreak does little to stop a Pyroblast from pulling the boss off me.
I'm just thinking that, since threat is so ridiculous right now, we have it extremely easy for GCDs. We don't need to do much, if anything, for most of the fight, other than keeping ourselves alive (Keeping Blade Barrier up, and using DS, dumping RP on Rune Strike, and our various CDs), it should be fairly doable to spend a couple of additional seconds to get both diseases up and running, in case Outbreak happens to miss.
I suppose it also depends on how important Tank DPS will be in 4.3. But other than that, I still think it sounds more like a personal choice, whether you want to hit-cap or not.
Post by
DraconisAerius
Maybe put hit either equal with haste or just below it then? It's certainly going ot be higher than exp, by a long way.
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